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cleolinda
ONE MORE TIME: Breaking Dawn in Fifteen Minutes.

@made_of_fail: Episode Forty-Eight: And Then the Werewolf Fell In Love With the WAIT WHAT

@NoelCT: Want to hear me kinda sorta somewhat defend the Breaking Dawn and the Twilight series?

@NoelCT: Want to hear my impression of Edward Cullen as played by Christopher Walken? 

@NoelCT: Want to hear about all the tasty treats one can make from a strawberry flavored uterus? 

@NoelCT: Want to hear me explain the mechanics of male wet dreams to three women? Check out Made of Fail!

@cleolinda: I am also on it. RT @queenanthai: HEY GUESS WHAT episode is up http://made-of-fail-pc.livejournal.com/25442.html

Oh, this is also the one where I have a very controversial answer to the "Edward vs. Dracula" question. "IT'S NOT FAIR, BUT SHE WROTE IT THAT WAY!" Also, in the last ten minutes: how the Eggward story one of y'all told me explains why I still like the first movie more than any of the others.

Also, I remembered the "dirty question" someone asked poor Chris Weitz. Bonus: My turn on the Meet the Failcrew Q&A. Also-also: what happens when y'all don't write in for Mailbag Mondays.


@alliancesjr: THE FRIENDSHIP IS OVER. OOOOOVAAAAAAAAAAHHHH

@cleolinda: OVER 9000?


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I just thought you should know that my internet wife mutantjules has now conceded that she has to see Breaking Dawn after all because your m15m made her laugh so much. HOW DO YOU SLEEP AT NIGHT, MADAM? J'ACCUSE!!

...also, dunno if you saw this, but Film Crit Hulk takes on Twilight. Tl;dr to the MAX and kinda hard to read because of the capslock, but scarily accurate and articulate all the same. (Although that famous quote isn't really Stephen King, is it? That's a misconception?)

And re: Chris Weitz--he directed this other movie called A Better Life and we did a panel interview about it @ the museum where I work. He was there, as was the band who did the original song for the movie, and it was like "it's the director of the acclaimed About A Boy! Remember About A Boy? About A Boy was awesome!" and then one of the band guys was essentially like "man, I thought this movie was gonna suck because, you know, Twilight. But it didn't!" And I was like 'wow dude, you just totally talked about Fight Club.' And it was awesome. [/csb]

I was at a screening of the movie (A Better Life) where he did a Q&A after and I was totally waiting for someone to bring up New Moon--luckily, they didn't. Although that would have been fun/awkward to witness.

He is a CHAMP on Twitter, let me tell you. He only shows up every now and then nowadays, but when he wasn't as busy, he would just sit there for hours and take questions--and because I love him for what he tried to do with the Golden Compass (before it was taken away from him), I decided to follow him. Oh my God, the shame I feel for humanity now.

I have witnessed some of the crazy on twitter! I started following him after the screening--I spoke with him really briefly afterwards since the movie is about an immigrant family, and I study immigration and he started to do a lot of stuff with immigrant rights non-profits, yadda yadda yadda, and I was really impressed by how sincere/genuine he seemed to be.

He was also super nice to some random girls that were there that I'm pretty sure were Twilight fans--just a hunch, but they were acting like he should have known who they were and like they'd met before. And they squealed a lot. Poor man.

I lost it at "He shot first like Han Solo!" Just, about five minutes of nonstop laughter and now I'm laughing just thinking about it. Amazing. The "Horrify The Twilight Noob" of Eclipse will never be topped, though.

I don't know if I remembered to write in, but Breaking Dawn m15m made me cry with laughter. Thank you!

Also I saw this and thought you might enjoy it: I�m Going to See Breaking Dawn OR How A Smart, Independent, Educated Woman Learned to Love Twilight (http://girlslikegiants.wordpress.com/2011/11/23/996/). It's a PhD lit student talking about Twilight.

I loved MoF so much. But Christopher Walken!Edward slayed me.

SLAYED. I literally had to pick myself up off the floor.

Since it was in reference to something that apparently really happened on set, I'm hoping that take ends up on the DVD extras.

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Dead all over again. Bella's face...omg. Thanks for this!

You're welcome. :)

I've totally been imagining the New Moon segments with Bella having hallucinations of Christopher Walken. "Bella... don't DO this.... Lie... lie BETTAH!"

Walken!Edward would've so improved that movie.

Sidenote: I'm glad MoF had you on for this episode (for reasons besides the Walken thing making me cackle like a madwoman). Your perspective on Twilight was interesting and it gave me something to think about, so thank you again!

I got to the bit with Walken!Edward while I was on a bus to my lab with 20 other people and I literally burst out laughing and EVERYONE stared at me. MOF is bad for my social life.

I really enjoyed that!

But I have to ask, is there a link with Stephenie Meyer saying Edward had never ejaculated? When I was in TwiFandom I was obsessive about Word of God, and it bugs me that I never saw that one.

I may have heard a garbled version of what she actually said, but my understanding was that she had said that because he hadn't done something, all his semen (I cannot believe I am having this conversation, but then, I guess I started it) remained in his body and was frozen when he became a vampire and had just been sitting around waiting for Bella. I KNOW I saw SOMETHING quoted somewhere, because I can see the web page in my mind; she may have simply been referring to sex and masturbation as things that didn't happen.

The really stupid thing is, he could have had all the sex in the world (or all the masturbation, like EVERY OTHER TEENAGE BOY) and still had whatever was on hand at the time (as it were) frozen in his vampire body. I mean, unless something had happened that MORNING or something. There was no need for her to drag in this TMI mess about anything that had or somehow had not happened before that. In fact, I wish she hadn't tried to explain anything "scientific" about vampire conception or chromosomes or whatever at all. They're VAMPIRES. A WIZARD DID IT.

I can't believe I'm having this conversation either, but maybe she was saying he didn't have sex or masturbate after he became a vampire? Which is why he still had his semen?

I wouldn't put it past her to say that, I'm just wondering why I can't find the actual interview/conversation when she did say it. I've heard a lot of fans saying that Word of God had Edward never ejaculating before, but I always assumed it was speculation that had gone wild and been falsely attributed to SM herself. But now that I think of just how many people have told me this same information, I'm really starting to believe she did say it. It's just mysterious that I can't find any direct quote from her online about it, or even a close second-hand account of her saying it (at like, a book signing or something).

I could be wrong since it's been a while, but if I recall correctly, the other half-vampire kid mentioned that the guy who fathered him had done it multiple times. So I never took much stock in the no ejaculation story, but I could have just misread some lines. Someone with a book/better memory should check that.

I am so incredibly certain that SOMEONE at SOME POINT said that SHE SAID etc. at one of her readings (MY KINGDOM FOR A LINK). Which makes "Wait, but that other guy fathered kids a whole bunch of times" even stupider.

See, here's where I think the problem comes in: I am pretty sure she said this at some public event, like one of her reading tours or whatever, and so it never appeared properly quoted in print on her site or in a media interview. That's what I'm pretty sure I remember seeing, one or more people describing or transcribing what she said. Which may be 1) why you can't find it (because God knows what coy wording she or the people reporting it used. I don't know how to google "because he never, like, YOU KNOW") and 2) I can't remember precisely what it was.

Hmm...didn't she only do four huge tour stops for Breaking Dawn? (I was at the Los Angeles one ohgodwhydoiadmitthat.) All of those stops were pretty well-documented, including with video. Oh! But she had a couple of words with basically everyone she signed a book for, and she could have said that then, to one person -- it's entirely possible.

I don't know how to google "because he never, like, YOU KNOW"

I have been contemplating that for hours. What the hell can you put into a search engine for this?

I actually think it used to be in her FAQ on the Breaking Dawn page of her website. I'm pretty sure she said something along the lines that she couldn't really answer it very well during interviews because she "couldn't say the words seminal fluids without giggling like a 12 year old girl" or something equally glaikit. The FAQ has been updated at some point, because the answer to the question about how vampire babies are made has changed a lot! She's obviously realised that she didn't actually have a clue what happens in her own book and had to have a rethink about the biology of it all.

That's the other thing--I distinctly remember two slightly different explanations and thinking, "Oh, I see she's reconsidering this after fans jumped all over her."

Then again, memory is a strange and adaptable thing. I don't know.

Jumping in to say I KNOOOOOW it used to be in her website FAQ so I second the "rethought this whole biology and took it down" thing. haha

See, I'm pretty sure she said that somehow, and I must have extrapolated "ever ejaculated at all" from that, because OF COURSE HE WOULD HAVE INVOLUNTARILY AT SOME POINT, YOU COULDN'T HAVE STOPPED HIM. (See also: Noel's bit about "every two weeks.") The whole thing's just so nonsensical that I'm not even sure what the real wording was.

I have the weirdest feeling that this is a piece of fanon attributed to SM, but then again I've seen so many people quote it as fact that I'm starting to believe she did say it, and that one of her handlers/people around her had the sense to delete it before it could go around too far. Which I guess didn't actually work.

They're VAMPIRES. A WIZARD DID IT.

Oh yes, this absolutely. I would have infinitely preferred her to say "it's magic" and leave it at that. I think she felt defensive about all the people accusing her of lying in regards to whether vampires can have babies (I still hold that she totally did. When the question is "can vampires have babies", and the answer begins with "no" followed by a female example, that's still saying that vampires in general can't have babies. Last I checked, men can "have" children. I am quite a grumpy bear about this), but all her explanations as to how it could happen "scientifically" (in-book and on her website) just made it sound stupider and stupider.

I shouldn't even do this, but since you are really looking for an answer. No she never said that. The first proof of this being suspicious is that had you ever seen Smeyer talking about sex in an interview or television? She just doesn't not sure if is personal choice or as a mormon she doesn't believe in discussing sex mechanics. Second, there is at least four other hybrids created by Joham (Nahuel's father) she did explained that the venom does alter the genetic make up of the human converted thus they can pass half-vampirism to their progeny. The closest thing she said was that vampires can't get pregnant. You can find this in Twilightlexicom and Twilightletters (probably the second has all her interviews so far), her official website and of course the Twilight guide.
Hope that helped.

I have actually seen SM discuss sex (though not the mechanics) on the Twilight Lexicon, although I don't remember exactly what she said (IIRC, it had to do with Eclipse, and how she felt that people were treating Bella extremely unfairly for wanting to have sex with Edward. I think. It's been years.)

Do you think she could have said something to a person she was signing a book for at an event? It probably wouldn't have been widely documented.

I doubt it, I belong to four major fansites (2 English, 2 Spanish) aside from my large community in Facebook, Twitter... I had heard the theory before but never linked to Smeyer as a source, and barely any fan mentions it, most of the time it had been non-fans the ones that use this explanation, the first time I read it was in TVtropes if that helps and since she wrote Forever Dawn (the original sequel to Twilight long before the first book was even published) with the idea of the hybrids showing at the last minute to prevent the fight, she would be blatantly lying about a major point because Joham had been creating vampires long before Edward was even born,it was meant to bit a new info for the characters but no for the universe. So I'm 99% sure that is just a fandom rumor.

Edward punching a shark? DO WANT.

A lot of Noel's "how Meyer's writing could have been better" points (actually endangering characters, why aren't vampires ruling the world, imprinting scenarios other than for eventual smex romance) are actually addressed in Alicorn's Luminosity. It's not nearly as awesome LOLtastic as the various fanfic scenarios you lot threw around, but I think you'd enjoy it. Tropes page here for your perusal: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Fanfic/Luminosity

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I'm not surprised. OH, you mean... oh.

I like the idea of Edward never ejaculating or masturbating only because I can only imagine Emmett mocking him mercilessly over it. You know what I mean?

"Yo, Edward. You seem pretty into this Bella chick... you, uh, spend a lot of time... you know, THINKIN', about her, dude?"
"What? Emmett I don't know what you're implying by th... OH MY GOD EMMETT I CAN HEAR YOUR THOUGHTS WHAT IS THIS THAT YOU ARE ASKING ME."
"Dude! It's totally natural! It's ok! Everyone does it!"
"EMMETT THIS CONVERSATION IS FOUL AND INAPPROPRIATE AND I AM OFFENDED."
"Aw, come on bro! calm down! Edward! Come back!"
"NO, EMMETT I AM WALKING AWAY BECAUSE THIS CONVERSATION IS OVER AND ALSO I FEEL FUNNY."
"Loosen up, VIRGIN."
"SEXUAL DEVIANT!!!"

Noel's attempts to defend and present the text as less skeevy than it actually is (but could be, in some possible alternate universe) are valiant but, IMO, ultimately futile.

Yeahhhh. God bless, but if your argument is, "It could be okay if she had written it differently!" then it is not, in fact, okay. I spent more time not finishing grad school than most people do finishing it, and I spent too much time Close-Reading The Text as an academic concept to be having with this.

I wasn't entirely arguing "It would have been better if...", just trying to defend the concept of the setup, and point out that we've only seen two imprints result in actual relationships, with the two toddler imprints having yet to play out. I mean, sure, Jacob and Renesmee will be a squicky couple, that's a foregone conclusion, but there's still open story potential for Quill and his kid. That's a chapter that has yet to be written.

Also, I don't see skeevier aspects of storytelling as ultimately detrimental. Like the pregnancy, the birth, the cesarean, Jacob wanting to kill the baby, all of that I like as it feels like a natural and unrestrained course for the story to take. My problem is that, after getting all that out of her system, Meyer seemed to tighten up again and wanted everyone safe. She set up a great potential conflict between Jacob and Bella over Renesmee, but nothing ultimately came of it. She set up a huge climactic battle, but it became a staredown that cleared up with the victorious enthusiasm of an office birthday party. And then you have imprinting. I'm not arguing that the payoff works, it doesn't because Meyer won't let herself follow through on the darker aspects of her setup, but it's the setup itself that I'm defending as interesting.

But IMO, the imprinting is there only to justify Meyer's (Mormonism-informed, again IMO) concept of predestined mates. There is no other possible outcome within the story; they will be together as a romantic couple because they are meant to be together as a romantic couple. It really is as simple as that. You're looking for depth and nuance and possibility where there is none. "Love at first sight" - the ultimate extension of infatuation, making it lifelong and determined by fate - is as much a fact in Meyer's fantasy universe as the sun rising each morning.

To say that another author might do other things with the setup, with themes of predestination, arranged marriages, people rebelling against how they've been raised and what they're expected to be, etc etc is, still and finally IMO, not relevant to discussing this author and her work - at least, not to defend it. Meyer is content to let things lie with a simple "Because."

Yes, they're soulmates. I am getting that and it is something I also criticise for being simplistic. And even as I criticize it, I find it adds an interesting layer to things as it gives a window into the author's beliefs and how they shaped the work.

Going back to where I started in the podcast, my main argument with imprinting is I'm against using the paedophilia label. That's an extremely strong stigma to throw on something and, squicky or not, none of these relationships involve sexual interaction with nor sexual attraction towards children, and I thus feel the label is extremely unfair and overused. Yes, it's disturbing that free will is thrown out the door or the idea that the women will magically fall head over heels in return, both of which are worthy of criticism, but unless someone is actually assaulting or lusting after a child in some way, I think such extreme branding as the world "paedophilia" should be withheld.

I agree the label is inappropriate, mostly because I doubt that Meyer ever considered or was aware of that connotation. Most of the really troublesome aspects only become apparent when considered from a perspective more worldly and nuanced than "and then the adorably klutzy lamb became the most awesome lioness ever and everyone loved her and they all lived and had amazing vanilla sex happily ever after."

Would you mind citing the precise passage in the Book of Mormon or the Doctrine and Covenants regarding predestination for mates? I suspect you may have some difficulty finding it in either.

Oh, yay, you liked my story about my daughter screaming at Bella about Eggward during Eclipse! (She was 5 at the time, fyi.) Haha, she won't be going to see Breaking Dawn, just in case anyone is judging my parenting skills. The movies up to this point weren't anything you couldn't see on TV on any given night, and there was nothing in them that I felt we couldn't talk about and I couldn't adapt the conversation to make age appropriate. Breaking Dawn...not so much. I can't explain why Eggward's mouth is covered in uterus, God help me. It's like you say, Cleo, teachable moments.

And can I just say, I kinda love Noel.

You most certainly can say that. :)

I would never have even approached this series if it weren't for your brilliance and snark. I would never have made it through the books, the novella, the movies, and the utter fuckwittery without your guidance - you are also the Twilight Sherpa, apparently.

On a non-sparklepire note, I want that porcupine to be my pet soooo much. We could sit on opposite ends of my couch grumping at each other and trying to steal each others snacks. I want him.

The thing (okay, one of the many things) that skeeves me about the imprinting is that no, the imprinter won't always listen to the imprinted-on if they say they don't want a romantic relationship. When Sam imprinted on Emily, she rejected him repeatedly - he would visit her every day and she would still reject him. Eventually they got into an argument and he got upset, shifted without meaning to and mauled her.

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