Occupation: Girl

Please close the door and switch on the fun without fail.


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Even considering that, here's the thing about writing something in or out of character: The Avengers was not a documentary. You can say, "Well, Loki would say that, that's just how he is, here's why he did that." Actually? "Loki" didn't do that. He doesn't exist in the real world. Joss Whedon wrote that.

While I greatly enjoy discussing characters, character motivations, and character arcs as if the characters are "real" people -- I do not understand losing sight of the bottom line that the characters are not real; some real person had to choose how to write them and portray them. That's why this line has me so nuts. Yeah, Loki's a bad guy, bad guys can be evil. But Loki is also PRETEND, and making your pretend bad guy use such a disgusting (if antiquated) sexist slur in what is otherwise a PG-13, non-Watchmen, escapist-superhero mythology film is, y'know, Not Cool. It doesn't fit the movie. It doesn't fit the WORLD of the movie. It's ugly and demeaning. Why did you put it in??

It's not a completely accurate analogy, but: if Loki had popped out with an ugly racist slur against Samuel L. Jackson's Nick Fury, we would not all be saying Oh, but Loki's a villain; he's just being a villain, it's all cool. We'd *get* that. I do not know why this sexist slur is okay instead.

... but since I primarily care about The Avengers because of Tony Stark and Thor, I can at least be glad neither one of them had anything to do with that scene. :\
(Frozen) (Thread)

It's not a completely accurate analogy, but: if Loki had popped out with an ugly racist slur against Samuel L. Jackson's Nick Fury, we would not all be saying Oh, but Loki's a villain; he's just being a villain, it's all cool. We'd *get* that. I do not know why this sexist slur is okay instead/

Yes. This.
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

... one more thought? I think we gotta be honest about what Whedon did here. He didn't sneak in a curse word past the censors. He snuck an ugly sexist slur past the censors. Regardless of how this particular line worked for various people -- there is a difference between a curse word and an -ist slur. It is not the same thing.
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

Oh God, it reminds me of a romance novel someone was talking about on Twitter--I think it was Jane Litte of Dear Author? To show that the guy the hero was stuck with for the beginning of the book was evil/bad/racist, the author dug up every single racist epithet she could find in, like, the world's largest thesaurus. In fact, I think part of the problem was that the epithets were so obscure or antiquated, she didn't actually understand how very, very offensive they were. And I'm in Alabama, so when Jane quoted them, I DID. One that started with a J--I just. I could not. I could not even. Like, come on. You have to be sure your shock value isn't the lazy way out.
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

Lord, do editors not exist anymore?? Which is kind of how I feel about this line of Loki's, too--like, someone wrote it, thought about it, and signed off/had someone else sign off on it. o.O
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

Seconding the here for Thor feeling. I mean, that's the only superhero movie I've ever seen with a Female Gaze instead of a male one, and I revelled in it. Heck, it's the ONLY movie period with a Female Gaze that I can name off the top of my head. That was such a WOW thing that so few people seem to realize or notice.

And then the very next movie he shows up in, we get this slur?
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

Also, passes the Bechdel test, which I don't THINK any of the other Marvel Studios movies do; including Avengers, as Maria Hill and Natasha didn't really have a chance to speak.

(TBH, I can't remember if IM2 counts. There were parts of the climax of the movie where Pepper and Natasha are working in concert to deal with Hammer; so in a sense, they're talking "about a man"... I'd really have to watch it all again to see if it passes.)
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

I personally despise Tony Stark as a person, so I have no idea if IM or IM2 would pass, nor do I want to check.
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

Pretty sure IM2 passes, because of the exact scene you describe; they spend a good deal of time focusing on technical solutions to the problem and tell Hammer to step off in the process.

Also, we see them working together in other scenes, and their conversations are about what needs to be done, not about Stark, etc.
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

Well, New Moon is a combo parody/definition of the Female Gaze, but yeah, it looks like Thor dialed it down to a point where it was enjoyable rather than somewhat embarrassingly ludicrous. (I REMOVE MY SHIRT AS FIRST AID!)
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

Aah, see, I didn't go see New Moon. At all. I've got a soapbox rant about Twilight that I'm not gonna go into. But still, from all the jokes that followed New Moon coming out, I do believe you have a point.
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

Ha. The only two things you need to know are:

1) Edward's first scene involves him walking across a parking lot towards Bella, in adoring slow motion, while shaking his head like, "You are totally seeing this in slow motion right now, aren't you?"

2) When Bella falls off a motorcycle and hits her head, Jacob tears off his shirt with the finesse of a stripper and dabs at a trickle of blood on her forehead with it.

I didn't see where Chris Weitz admitted he was overdoing it on purpose, but I've been told he did (I mean, I thought it was hilarious, so I'm not surprised). People have told me they did not understand the concept of the male vs. female gaze before they saw those clips... and then they totally, totally did. So I appreciate the idea that Thor could dial the female gaze thing down to a legitimate level and not a complete parody of itself.
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

Ha, I was just about to mention New Moon. Shirtless werewolf ogling.
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

I agree with all of your feelings on Thor. I delighted in the fact that that movie didn't shy away from how attractive Hemsworth is, plus I enjoyed its strong emotional core.

And then I didn't like Loki and Thor in the Avengers, and I have to deal with all my friends telling me how it was the best superhero movie ever of all time. :(
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

... best?

Just point out how 'best' is a subjective, not objective, quantifier and that you have different evaluation standards than they do.

I think Thor's the best we're gonna get for us girls till someone decides Wonder Woman is marketable.
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

till someone decides Wonder Woman is marketable.
:( I don't even know how long that would take and I get tired just thinking about a million internet dudes whining about how women-led movies are a niche thing.

Anyway, mostly I've just not engaged people on the Avengers, and have dodged the discussions by saying it wasn't my favorite of the Marvel movies and leaving it at that. *shrug*
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

You may have chosen more wisely than I did...
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

In addition, I think people do this 'he's the villain, he's supposed to be evil!' thing without much critical thought. I mean, there are villians who shock and horrify you.

And then there are the villians who make great Halloween costumes and quippy lines that make you run around quoting them all the time. I mean. Why so serious?

Loki is definitely the latter. Loki is a 'cool' villain. He's a sympathetic villain (frankly, I think he's more likable in Thor in many ways than Thor is). For many of my friends, he's the favorite character.

It's very different, to me, to choose to put those words in /that/ villain's mouth - especially when you then publicly draw attention to the phrase and hold it up as an awesome thing.

I don't think it's beyond expectation to picture high school boys walking around with that - and other Loki quotes - in their mouths. Or college boys. Or... I mean, you know.
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

The interesting thing was that I had actually seen a couple of mentions of "quim" before I actually got to the movie--I know at least one person on Twitter was going around all like "Quim! Quim!" like it was really cool. And I was like, how the hell did that come up? So I get to the movie and I actually find out the context and it was just like OH THAT DID NOT JUST HAPPEN. And the Avengers/Loki fans I know of? Are mostly (not entirely) the female Tumblr Tom Hiddleston contingent. A lot of fangirls think everything Woobie Loki does is flawless and supercool. So... I'm not entirely buying the idea that *everyone* will grasp that the line was supposed to make Loki less attractive or sympathetic.

It's like--well, since Stellan Skarsgard was also in this movie, my brain wandered over to The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. I'm not saying sexual crudeness needs to be saved for the grimdark R-rated movies per se (and I even said elsewhere in these comments that if "quim" had been some kind of playful innuendo, I would have thought it was clever). But, like... Loki and the Joker, like you're saying, are fun quotable Halloween villains. Nobody wants to be Martin Vanger for Halloween. A really crude sexual threat would work, coming from him. Like, Loki threatens Jane somewhat indirectly, that little conversation he has with Thor, and that works for me--the way he verbalizes that threat seems in character. The way he verbalizes the threat to Natasha seems out of place, to me. That's the distinction I see.

(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

Yeah, exactly. I mean, I don't know that I'd be fond of it anywhere, but it's beyond different to place it in the mouth of a villain so many people /love/. And the love is not a surprise! Like you say, Tumblr is all over it! And with reason! He's a lovable villain with a tragic backstory and a brother who's kind of an ass to him!

I mean, at the end of the day it doesn't really excuse all the, you know, murder and stuff. But you don't draw a sympathetic villain, give him quippy quotable one-liners, and then toss that 'cutesy' old-fashioned misogynistic slang into his mouth.
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

Well--and I think this is my overall theme here--you can, but I don't have to think it's cool.
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

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