Occupation: Girl

Please close the door and switch on the fun without fail.

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Which is cool. Part of my problem is that I'm kind of disturbed and uncomfortable, but it's so damn borderline, I don't entirely know how I feel about it, and I'm not sure I can explain it in a way that fans can't totally and thoroughly counter.
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

Honestly, Cleo, the cruelty of the "he's adopted" line has bothered me since I heard it, so I absolutely get that this legitimately bothers you. I am in no way trying to change your mind or counter you, honest.
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

No, it's cool. Honestly, once people explained to me why "he's adopted" was so wildly out of character, I was like... damn.
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

Still me, fic account.

I've actually worked out why the quim line didn't bother me. It's because it shows Natasha getting hit with about as vicious an attack as misogyny has to offer... And she ignores it like it's meaningless noise and goes for the win. That's why I don't mind it. She doesn't listen to Loki any more than anyone else ever has.

As for Loki, I have a lot of feeling for movieLoki because, frankly? Rejected and lonely and FURIOUSLY angry? For most of my life I could relate. His storyline speaks to me. And in *Thor*, one of the main reasons he went off the rails was, he got hit right in the insecurity, with a message that made him think he really was as unloved and unimportant and *not part of the family* as he always felt.

And in this movie, the first thing Thor does when he wants to join the new cool-kid crowd is, he *repudiates Loki as a real member of his family.* So that thing Loki feared so much he went crazy? IT'S TRUE.

I wanted just *one* scene where Thor expressed sorrow or affection or did that heartbreaking defense-of-loved-one thing. And I saw not a one. He talked brotherhood when he was trying to get Loki to come home and be punished and then be a good little doggie and follow Thor around some more, but there was never a hint of affection or worry or concern for what the hell happened to turn him evil overnight. Nothing. (That I saw-- interpretations vary, but this one is mine.)

It was depressingly empty and cold, and I *wanted* to like Thor and sympathize with his pain. But he just didn't have any. By the time he agreed to stand aside while Fury *had Loki tortured* I kind of wanted to chuck him out of the helicarrier myself, honestly!
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

Yeah... kind of sounds like there were a number of moments where the implications weren't quite thought all the way through here.
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

Curses! I hadn't thought about the Thor characterization in the movie like that! Sadness. His movie was my favorite besides Iron Man.

I could argue that the "he's adopted" line might be the beginning of Thor's disillusionment with Loki, which escalated because of how fast things were happening, but I don't want that to be true, because they are brothers and family in every way that counts, which is backed up wholeheartedly by Frigga and Odin in Thor, and you don't do that to family. I could also argue that you can only do so much "please come home, brother!"s before you give up and acknowledge he's evil, but again: family, and I don't want to give him the out.

The best I can hope for is that the brotherly emotions were there, but with not a lot of time to be portrayed, and will come back out to play in Thor 2.
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

*Thor* was one of my favourites as well so I wish I could believe all that too, but this is presented as Loki's first appearance since he fell into the void after Odin rejected him. So if Thor was *ever* going to show love and concern and "brother what has been done to you?"-- now is the time.

And instead we get throat-grabbing, throwing down, exhortations to come home and be like things were when Thor was happy...

And then repudiation and an agreement to let Fury torture Loki. All within what, an hour of their reunion, and a very short time since Thor found out Loki is alive.

And the thing that has kind of haunted me since *Thor* is, the whole family has tried to talk Loki down by claaiming him, telling him to stop "twisting my words," telling him he's mad (no argument) but there has never been a single occurrence of "we love you." Ever. In his mental state, I don't think Loki is capable of "just knowing" that, and nobody has said it to him. So the stories he's spinning himself about not being a real member of the family? When all he gets in return is "you're ours and so we have a right to control you" (which you can bet is what it sounds like in his head) it's unlikely to make him guess they want him back for him, rather than for the uses to which they might put him.

Sorry. This just *really* bothered me, because originally I liked the character of Thor and wanted to sympathize with him.
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

Don't be sorry! I love discussing this stuff, and I see why you're distraught. I'm trying to look at all the sides, but I think it's slightly lazy writing. I'm still holding out that Thor (and Loki, hopefully, especially since they'll need him on their side with Thanos wreaking havoc) will eventually be redeemed.

I agree that Thor and family didn't do the best job of convincing Loki of their love, but I would argue that Thor's still growing as a person, and Odin's standoffish, to stay the least. Thor's world has been idyllic for his what... 500? 1000? year long life, and to have it suddenly torn apart is not easy to cope with, and of course worse for Loki. As it is, Thor is just learning to communicate and doesn't really understand Loki, so I'm not really surprised he'd have some issues. It doesn't make it okay, but I think it's a natural part of communication issues and his development. Plus, keep in mind that the reason Thor's even on Earth is because Loki is raining mayhem on (mostly) defenseless mortals and he's been sent to bring him back as a prison escort, basically. And there's the fact that as basically immortal beings, they might go through century-long cycles of hate/love that are blips on their radar.

Not to mention, we're in a movie. If everyone sat down to talk about their issues, we'd have no drama. If Thor tells Loki he loves him and Loki softens, we've lost our villain. However, Thor tells Loki he loves him and Loki says "no" and keeps on killing, then Loki's beyond redemption and ceases to be interesting and conflicted as a villain. It's definitely clunky character flow-wise, but it's a bit necessary for this movie to get on with stuff. Plus they cut a half hour of footage- maybe Thor's sympathetic scene will appear as a deleted scene.

I have some questions- I can't remember, did Thor actually agree to let Fury torture him? Also, is it even possible for Fury to torture Loki? Standing by is just as complicit, but if Widow talking to him is torture, then I'd say that's pretty progressive. It sounds like Thor would have had to do the torturing, since he's the only thing strong enough to make a dent in Loki, when Coulson's BFG fazed him not at all. And again, Loki is now a war criminal, no matter how much he's family.
(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

I'm positive the deleted footage would tell a different story. The deleted scenes in *Thor*-- including one later edited down-- presented Thor and Loki as much closer, and that was deliberately edited out (which to me made Loki's behaviour seem much more organic.)

I'm hoping, just in terms of a character arc, there is a turnaround in *Thor 2* because artistically a cycle of three works for me-- like, decline, crash, recovery. I live in hope. And then they could go on to a new villain!

I don't want to keep saying the same things over and over, but it was the time frame for me: it was like Thor gave up immediately. I can't get over that.

My memory was that when Widow arrived, Loki sneered that he expected her to show up after the torture "as balm" when he was weak. So my impression was that *Loki* beleived he could be tortured by Fury. (And both thor and Loki are vulnerable to tasers or repulsors, so you could zap the daylights out of him!)

I'm with you in hoping this arc gets more attention and thought in Thor 2, and that Marvel does let Loki get redeemed instead of just killed. I also hope whatever happens, I believe it!

(Frozen) (Parent) (Thread)

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