Occupation: Girl

Please close the door and switch on the fun without fail.

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In which I technically do not Bring It Up Again
pallas cat - meep
cleolinda
I just wanted to thank y'all for keeping the movie discussion as civil as it mostly managed to be. It extended over two entries, the general movie discussion and then "Let me recap the discussion of this one line" entry; as of this writing, I have gotten a grand total of eight hundred and one (801) comments in response, 336 on the second, more specific entry alone. One of the reasons I posted that entry, despite severe feelings of dread and anxiety, was that I have a major problem worrying about Omg What Will People Think of Me for pretty much literally (literally) everything I do or say. Online, offline, everything. It might be the root of all other anxieties I have, in fact. So I thought, maybe this would be a good exercise in saying what I think and then just rolling with the reactions and working on caring but not caring, you know?

I kind of feel like I've had a colonic now. Drained, but in a zen way. In fact, there was apparently an anonymeme thread about how oversensitive or full of myself I am or something, and I even managed to close that tab within a few seconds and get over it. (I also may have been, in the course of linguistic discussion, completely desensitized to profanity of all kinds.) I'll probably be scared as hell the next time I decide to say, you know, anything, but we had a discussion this time and it happened and people were really, really invested in explaining over and over why they disagreed which was cool but got surprisingly insistent but nothing exploded although a few people on Twitter got kind of mad and we were mostly all okay. I was a little disappointed in "But it's just a WORD!" and "Well, your feelings are WRONG" comments, if only because--if you think that neither language nor emotional reactions are worth talking about, I'm not sure what this journal has to offer you. Particularly since I said over and over that I appreciated alternate interpretations as completely valid and was not calling for a public shunning of any kind and no one is bad nor should they feel bad. But there was very little actual flaming and things turned out all right.

The whole thing was strange in another way. As I noted elsewhere--well, let me just paste it in:

[Regardng Twilight fans:] Honestly, I think I only got one anonymous flame and one "cleoloindaisgay" username flame (my all-time favorite). All the rest were under legit LJ usernames. And honestly, they had a lot more to complain about, given that I went on about Twilight for (*counts on fingers*) four years, six book recaps and four movie parodies. Two Avengers discussion entries, in which I said I liked the movie, and it's 700+ plus comments. (Only some of them negative, but I couldn't estimate what percentage. Maybe half disagreeing with me on various points, probably less than 25% with some level of hostility. [...] But I had less than a dozen comments' worth of insistence that Edward Cullen is the perfect man and Twilight is a modern classic from a fandom incredibly invested in believing this to be true. I can't tell what conclusion to draw from any of this; I just seriously was not expecting an Avengers discussion this intense on two entries that said "I liked the movie but not this one line."

The other thing is that I now look like I care SOOO MUCH about this one tiny thing, and... I kind of don't, actually. But this is what happens when you end up having tiny individual discussions with 50-100 separate people who come by and want to weigh in on it: you spend so much time and energy engaging with your guests that it looks like you cared 700 comments' worth of argument on a minutely specific subject. Words don't even look like words now. I stand by my intellectual arguments, but I seriously am no longer able to feel any emotion about that line of dialogue now.
(Then I had a terrifying vision of the future: a Dark Knight Rises discussion entry.)

So, I'm mostly posting this to say that I'm all tapped out and have said everything I have to say about ten times over to a hundred different people and won't be replying to any more comments on those two entries. (Or to @ comments on Twitter. In fact, I think I'm going to filter "quim" right off TweetDeck.) I promise you, just about any point you would like to make has very likely already been made, and you can probably find my response to pretty much anything you can think of if you look long enough. I'm leaving comments open for other people to keep discussing, since I know the entry's being linked around again. I will read new comments and continue to moderate as necessary, but I won't actually be contributing further to the overall discussion, having already had a hundred tiny ones. Thanks for being cool.

(I would also appreciate any discussion of The Avengers staying on those two entries and not this one. I will freeze any discussion of The Avengers here because I am tired. I'm not even sure what anyone would even want to say on this post, but didn't want to just outright disable comments. Here's Jim Hines' follow-up, Criticizing Our Fandoms, as well.)


ETA: WELP, IT'S CLOSED. I think we had that discussion for like four or five days straight and I am pretty sure that is the first time I have ever locked comments on an entire entry, so mark it down in the record books. Still got something to say, take it to your own blogs and journals, godspeed.




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Maybe there should be a gif-party or a fic-reccing party in the comments, or something. :P

♥ Hosting AND posting in discussions like this has to be exhausting.


I genuinely thought it was going to be about half as many comments with a few flames I would have to put out, freeze a few threads, and that would be it. I just really did not expect so many people to want to weigh in on it, which meant that I ended up repeating myself in quantity rather than in depth. Or something. I'm tired.


Gifs are excellent.

I feel like I missed something important.

I'll go browse.

Previous post. I don't even want to link to it. God help us all.

Dude, you did GOOD. I waded in for about five minutes, and had to back out without comment owing to the desire to tell people to stop being on my side - and I didn't even get to any comments that I didn't agree with! You have the patience of a saint.

A deep terror of offending people helps, I think.

"Then I had a terrifying vision of the future: a Dark Knight Rises discussion entry."

::Flees screaming from the internets::

Bah, the "just words" argument always bugs me. It's not too far from "just a book", which always makes me want to like throw the bible at their heads as an example of an influential book and to also vent my frustration.

I get your deep fear of offending people tho. Yesterday I was getting a hot chocolate at a coffee place and I forgot to ask for soymilk so when I remembered and asked the girl to change it I was quietly panicking inside that she thinks I'm an annoying as hell customer and I felt like an idiot for asking her to change it even though regular milk would probably kill me. :\

(Deleted comment)
I deliberately didn't response to that post as I thought it might end up in a nightmare for you (and I say this as someone who has a, possibly cultural, different viewpoint). I figure you've had all the arguments you need :p

Instead, here's something that may be of interest to your readers. The lovely Ewan Macgregor has quietly joined Twitter at @mcgregor_ewan.

Oh, also here's a yawning puppy

Thank you for posting about it. It bothered me too but I wasn't emboldened to talk about it until I saw your post.

I am very appreciative that you started both discussions (and cross-pollinated the ones at jimhines) because they gave me a lot to think about and caused me to see some things in a new light. I don't share all of your viewpoints, but I really enjoyed reading them and watching the conversations that unfolded. Knowing that you were anxious about it just makes me appreciate it that much more, as I'm definitely familiar with the problem of "I'm afraid to post this in case somebody attacks me." Thank you for being willing to start and host these conversations, despite that concern.

I apologize that I have no good GIFs today. I'll see if my husband has some he can pass on to me later.

Thank you so much for hosting the discussion, Cleo. Even if it got a bit heavy at times, or was just exhausting. I appreciate it all the more because it was so fraught for you. Little did you know you were going to host an impromptu salon. Like suddenly everybody was like: a place! to talk about this thing! And also yes: a place! to be able to discuss the bad with the good, in depth, rather than just being squeeful! Thus, the runaway locomotive that nobody expected (much like the box office returns). From where I was sitting, it seemed to me like it went well? I think? Anyway, the amount of energy it takes to deal with hosting that kind of thing does not go unappreciated.

I thought you handled it beautifully, and the discussions I saw were civil and interesting.

Hey Cleo,

Thanks for hosting a civil conversational forum about a topic of wide interest. It's a mitzvah.

You da bomb.

Thank YOU for being cool, too. This community is one you've built, and you've done it with intellectual approaches to emotional responses; it's what we've come to expect from you, and I'm pleased but not surprised that mostly people responded in kind. The sort of people who enjoy this blog are mostly the sort of people who can/want to have an intelligent discussion about this, which is most of what I saw in the comments.

How DARE you be offended by something and express so on the internet! It's not like anyone else does it after all...

Bah, coming from someone who used to BE one of those 'you're just being sensitive!' people, don't take it too personally. There's a lot of Not Getting It with people like that. *rolls eyes*

BTW, out of curiosity, does anyone know where the word 'quim' comes from? I had a poke around trying to find its origin but my Google-Fu is weak today.

I think I went through that in the main body of the previous entry. Short version, possibly "cwm," Welsh for "valley." Further discussion needs to go over there.

Edited at 2012-05-10 09:49 pm (UTC)

(Then I had a terrifying vision of the future: a Dark Knight Rises discussion entry.)

I am looking forward to this already!

I am commenting on this entry mainly to say that I appreciate the fact that you attract and encourage debate and not hostility, and that people really rise up to that. So thanks!

I think THE HARDEST thing about being an artist is letting other people interpret your art. To me, art is a form of expression, of communication. I draw s circle half black and half white because I'm trying to communicate that I like things simple but you may think that it is a representation of the balance of the universe and that in order for me to have balance I should accept that which I do not believe in when in essence by accepting what I find morally comprehensible I am in fact lowering my standards and what were we talking about again?

Anyways that's what I think you are, an artist. You eloquently express yourself. And bravo to you for sharing your art. :)

I gotta say, your addendum post made me a little angry because GOD FORBID CLEOLINDA JONES POST HER OWN HONEST FEELINGS ON HER OWN MFKIN JOURNAL, THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS FANDOM so I'm really glad you're doing all right despite all that.

What, the ETA? It was still civil at that point, I was just exhausted from discussing it with each new person who very eagerly wanted to offer their own (very valid) interpretation. Too much of a good thing, maybe.

I hope we made it out okay, anyway. <3

(Then I had a terrifying vision of the future: a Dark Knight Rises discussion entry.)

This made me laugh out loud. ;-) That is all.

You laughed because YOU KNOW IT IS TRUE. Right down to the catsuit.

Thank you for being so nice about this whole thing. The conversations did get a little heavy at points... but for the most part is seemed helpful for most people to be able to discuss their feelings on the movie.

Anyway, um, my point is... you rock? :)

This is what I get for not paying enough attention to LJ! But great discussions and I totally get how the words don't even look like words any more. Have an Airedale being swarmed by some Scottie puppies (hope I can get the embed to work):


(Then I had a terrifying vision of the future: a Dark Knight Rises discussion entry.)

If Chris Nolan keeps up his less-than-awesomeness in the lady department in this one, too...I shudder to think.

Could we not fridge anyone this time? Honestly, odds are not good that BOTH Anne Hathaway and Marion Cotillard will make it out alive.

I didn't comment in either of the previous threads, because I haven't seen the movie yet. But I will say that you, Cleo, have a terrific knack for both expressing your opinion in an even and articulate manner and keeping things as civil as possible in your little corner of the internet.

It's not easy, but you do it quite well. It's a useful skill to have.

I didn't join the discussion, but I wanted to mention that one of said previous posts has now added "because reasons" to my vocabulary. And I want to thank you for that.

Heh. I'm not sure where I picked it up, but it's incredibly useful.

Thank you for making those posts. They were some of the few places on the whole of the internet where I could find people willing to listen to negative opinions of the movie, and it was very cathartic to have that space to be heard.

So, again, thanks for that, and sorry people stressed you out.

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