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Open discussion: Hannibal 2x09 "Shiizakana"
dire ravenstag gunmettle, dire ravenstag, dire ravenstag 04
It's the kind of day where I almost forgot it was Friday. That kind of week, really.

Two Aromaleigh eyeshadow colors this week:

APIARY: "This shade is a a gorgeous deepened yellow/gold with cocoa tones leaning towards brown, and a smattering of violet sparks."

FEAST: "This shade is a smoky violet with a coppery highlight and sparkles of red, russet and indigo."

I'm not sure what the next two will be, but the two I'm thinking of are super interesting concepts that we have been discussing for ages. That said, we usually think of at least one new color every time a new episode airs these days, and Kristen is actually making these up as we go along (exciting!), so.

Meanwhile, there is some straight-up X-Files-looking business on tonight; I don't even know what to make of it.

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once again, parents have taken over the tv and look rather comfortable. might be late watching it, but I'm chatty anyway.

Fun fact: the berserks had a pack equivalent, the ulfheðnar (wolf coat), and each had its own fighting style relating to its animal suit.

Edited at 2014-04-26 02:30 am (UTC)

"Remember Technoviking? Now we've got TECHNOBERSERKER!"

The first victim's death made me think of Bernie Wrightson's illustrations for Stephen King's short novel Cycle of the Werewolf. Specifically the illustration for November, featuring "the Beast" chowing down on a headless corpse while sitting on the roof of a Peterbilt...

So what does it say about me when I find that this episode horrified me more than pretty much any other one?

And hoo boy that ending. Looks like Will brought dinner again. He's so thoughtful that way.

My favorite part of the episode: Will and Margot's chat. I could almost ship them if the episode hadn't confirmed that Margot is a lesbian.

I ship Margot and Bedelia.

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I don't have anything coherent to add right now because I'm mildly hammered, but if anyone is interested in playing along, I've put up a Hannibal Drinking Game.

I played along tonight and did pretty well. Granted, I forgot to add "Drink whenever a reference is made to the books/movies", "Drink when there's time-lapse photography", and "Drink whenever something's so absurd you almost think it's a dream sequence."

Including those last three would actually clue the authorities in to your fiendish plot to kill us all from alcohol poisoning.

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I don't even know where to start. I'll just say this: Much as I fear Will's Becoming, it was a *brilliant* move sicking Randall on Buster. I went from, "Sweet Jesus, Will, that slope is looking slippery, watch yourself," to "FUCKING GET HIM, WILLDAGO! GET HIIIIIIM!!!!" And there was much rejoicing. And a post-show power cuddle with my own dogs.

Also: Was anyone else getting a Red Dragon vibe from all that talk about Becoming the Beast? I wonder, partly because I just finished the book (finally!) and partly because I know Dolarhyde going *slightly* different places in the show on account of the No Rape Policy.

And I'm kinda shipping Margo/Freddie as well. Their hair is already entering a fierce rivalry on Twitter.

The animal suit also reminded me (belatedly)of Dolarhyde's murder dentures.

Also, the way the characters say "becoming" all the time is just weird. Dolarhyde did it because he was crazy, and it sounds kind of awkward and forced coming from characters who aren't having an intimate emotional relationship with a painting.

You guys, I think I have to start smoking cigarettes again (I unwisely quit right before S2 started). As far as I see it, it's the 'least' offensive vice I can pick up to help manage my anxiety about this show.

Also I need to watch this episode about 14 more times before I can comment because I have NO IDEA...


I feel you. I stopped smoking YEARS ago, and generally speaking I don't miss it at all. But this show gives me cravings pretty badly. If I did still smoke, I would probably burn through a lot of cigarettes per episode.

Okay, wait, since I'm actually more coherent than I thought, I'm going to toss out a theory I entertained in last week's discussion post and am starting to think is seriously possible:

I think Will is going to (accidentally) kill Alana.

Mainly, it's that we seem to be building to both 1) Alana having something terrible happen to her, and 2) Will killing someone (not out of self-defense/defense of another). There's been clues all over the place that Alana's headed somewhere bad, with Chilton and Will warning her and with ominous warnings immediately cutting to shots of her. The season also seems to be about the building of the darkness in Will -- particularly since he just killed Cave Bear Guy. Yet I can't imagine that the growing darkness will end well for Will, especially since he seems to grow more and more trigger-happy. What I imagine the end result will be: Will is going to hurt someone innocent. Probably not on purpose, but I imagine it's gonna happen.

That, and there is that one line: "I wonder who else will be hurt be what you do", said by Hannibal to Will. Note the phrasing: hurt by what you do, not what Hannibal does.

I may be wrong (I am often wrong!) but I wouldn't be shocked if Fuller tried to wound us all by tying those two lines of foreshadowing together. Maybe Will's chasing Hannibal, Alana's running from Hannibal, it's dark, he's trigger-happy, and something bad happens. Maybe not. But I'm wondering if that's where we're headed.

I really hope we don't lose another female character, especially now that we have Margot filling the "look, a woman is onscreen and talking" role.

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Yeah, is the social worker still out there or what? And as the guys on last week's AMoT podcast mentioned, the social worker was present for that entire mindfuck of a conversation between Hannibal and Will. I figured Hannibal would kill him after the fact just so as not to have a witness.

Shii, one more thing.

Just scrolled up to see the thread's main message.

Cleo, my queen-- *big ole hug*

Last week, I knew it was Friday (because I did many of the Holy Week services), but I was so tired I actually forgot it was Hannibal day. Which made a nice finale to the existential despair and horror of Good Friday.

(Ugh, wall of text, I'm so sorry.) Also, Cleo, thank you so much for having these episode discussion posts. As much as I look forward to the recaps, the discussion is always just as much fun.

Man, Will is in this to catch Hannibal, but he’s really close to losing himself. He has to go all out and commit to the darkness in order to draw Hannibal in. And I think in committing to it, he’s also discovering it and discovering it’s not all an act. The opening nightmare was particularly vivid, with Will using the Ravenstag to tighten the rope binding Hannibal. The Ravenstag used to represent Hannibal in Will’s subconscious; now it’s obeying Will’s own commands. Even Will’s whistling seemed creepy.

Oh, but Will is officially a patient now. Well, probably best for confidentiality if we’re talking murders and such. “If I choose not to do something it’s usually for a good reason.” I can’t imagine what Hannibal considers a good reason for not doing something. I mean, if *Hannibal Lecter* thinks it’s a bad idea, it’s probably best left undone, y’know? But this dynamic is still blowing my mind in a way. ‘Therapy’ with someone you KNOW is a monster. It should be an impossible scenario to even happen, but the writers have set up the circumstances beautifully, and I love this bizarre dance that Hannibal and Will are doing, and I love that it’s lasting for several episodes. I like when Hannibal tells Will to “adapt your behavior to avoid feeling the same way again”, which in Hannibal speak is clearly ‘you totes should have murdered that guy, do it next time so you have no regrets’. I love that this is what Hannibal’s therapy has been driving Will towards since S1, except now he’s totally being upfront about wanting Will for his murder buddy. (Oh, but let’s just take a moment to appreciate Hannibal’s hat at the crime scene, because of course that’s his hat. He wouldn’t be caught dead in a hat like Will’s.)

I’m unsure whether Will believes Hannibal or not about killing Bedelia (because if Hannibal did, he would hardly say yes, as that would incriminate him). But yeah, it seems like Will is not the first patient Hannibal has encouraged to kill, though I think Will is certainly the, well, pinnacle. Like, if Hannibal thinks it would be interesting to get Randall or Margot to kill people, it’s a fun amusement, but getting Will to do would be creating a masterpiece. Margot is interesting in that she is savvy enough to pick up on what Hannibal is doing. I liked her and Will comparing notes, and then Will confronting Hannibal afterward about what would happen if his other patients talked to each other. I think Will gets that getting others to kill was Hannibal’s genuine ‘therapy’ for them. Hannibal genuinely thinks Will would be better off if he gave in to his urges.

I admit I’m a little confused about the scene where Hannibal sicks Randall on Will. Will seemed to think it was because he tried to have Hannibal killed (which I’m also undecided on: was Hannibal really hurt by that, or was he mostly impressed? Like, this is what friends do! Frame each other for murder, try to have the other one killed, good times!), but I wasn’t sure if it was because Will tried to have Hannibal killed, or because Hannibal just wanted Will to kill someone. I lean towards the latter. Hannibal can’t free Will and make Will feel good about killing unless Will kills someone. Gah, I love how Will then takes Randall back to Hannibal’s house and lays him out on the table. I mean, Will is in this now. Will is bringing bodies around like nbd. (Geez, in fancy cannibal etiquette this probably means they’re engaged.) And even though Will is all ‘Even Steven,’ what else does it say that he takes the body to Hannibal? Is it a weird ‘okay, now YOU clean up this mess’ thing, or more of a complete confidence that Hannibal will take care of all of it and Will needn’t ever worry about getting caught? Either way, they kind of are murder buddies now. It all goes back to that bizarre in-the-know, completely honest relationship. It’s an extreme level of trust to know that you can show up at a guy’s door with a dead body and that nothing will happen to you. It’s a fucked up trust, but it’s still trust.

Agreed with all of this, but especially the last paragraph.

I'm really worried for Will right now. Okay, so he brought the body back to Hannibal: now what? Sure, Will might have been able to argue self-defense if he'd just called the cops, but he didn't do that - he went to Hannibal instead. And while I'm sure there's paperwork to allow law enforcement officers to break the law in the name of catching bigger fish, Will is neither an officer nor is he acting like one. His conversation with Jack last episode looked like it was off the books, so what the heck is going to happen when Randall is discovered/declared missing? (Since the Randall-tiger in the preview might have been a hallucination/imagining, and not necessarily Hannibal+Will's work.)

Besides, even with the trust Will is showing for Hannibal (Will feeling trust is a whole other issue of reality vs acting), this gives Hannibal more leverage. This isn't the first time Hannibal has sent Will into the bear's lion's den, but it's the first time Will made Hannibal an accessory to a death that Will committed. Will is going to be in such trouble when Hannibal's arrested, if Will's sense of self even makes it that far...

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I try to imagine the ripple effect that must happen whenever the show makes references to the books...

"I collect church collapses." *rustling sound of fandom's hair standing on end*

OF COURSE Hannibal's going to be wearing an Ushanka in the cold weather.

Will and Hannibal's siccing killers on one another made me think, oddly enough, of the Pink Panther films... How Inspector Clouseau and Kato had this all but unspoken agreement where the latter would attack the former when he came home. Part of a whole combat readiness thing. It started out as kung fu fighting, and it escalated from there in later films, with the men grabbing weapons, and culminated in a madcap chase through the apartment building they both lived in, with other tenants watching gobsmacked as they ran past...

Edited at 2014-04-26 04:30 am (UTC)

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Once again the writers are writing the fanfic for us, as I can't view the opening as anything other than Hannibal and Will's sex life takes a dangerous turn.

I'm interested to see the Verger's popping up. I didn't know they planned to go there and secretly hope that Gary Oldman will be involved somehow.

I find myself frustrated. I don't feel like the last two episodes have done a terrible lot to advance the plot. Hannibal is crafting Will to be his partner in some kind of godawful buddy cop comedy gone wrong. We get it. I WANT TO KNOW HOW THE BOMB GOES OFF.

Edited at 2014-04-26 05:09 am (UTC)

I'm growing increasingly convinced that the Ravenstag no longer represents Hannibal for Will, if it ever did. The Wendigo is Will's metaphor for Hannibal, and this episode finally says that it and the Ravenstag are separate. Which means the Ravenstag settles on the other interpretation, that of Will's own darkness that's coming out.

I like to think that the Ravenstag represented Hannibal in S1, until Will finally saw Hannibal, at which point the wendigo became Hannibal. But the Ravenstag definitely seems to be linked to Will's darkness now.

i just had to get in a lolololol at "sweetbreads". lololol, sweetbreads.

Yeah, although E.N.!Will discovering Hannibal in that way seemed a little dumb in retrospect, it's still an integral part of canon.

You know how Will is using himself as live bait to catch Hannibal? Well, I remembered what happens to live bait while watching tonight's episode. It gets eaten by whatever you catch.

You know how Will is using himself as live bait to catch Hannibal? Well, I remembered what happens to live bait while watching tonight's episode. It gets eaten by whatever you catch.

Will is always willing to sacrifice his life, sanity, morality for the sake of saving lives, in this case catching Hannibal. It's terrible and it's canon and I just want him to stop before there's nothing left of his old self. After this season he needs to retire to Florida, fix motor boats and meet a nice single mom there who will help him rediscover the goodness inside of him...

Now that I've watched the full episode, a list of faves:

-- Katharine Isabelle's everything, but especially her voice. It's so LANGUID.


-- Blood looks so pretty on snow


-- the ravenstag, looking ratty, joining will (lol, almost typed kill) in his empathing. NO GOOD CAN COME OF THIS.


I wonder if Hannibal was like, "Randall, don't kill the dog. You're totally fucked if you kill the dog."

And yes, Margot is so wonderfully unimpressed by any of the craziness. She's already seen it all.

Is anyone else a bit confused by Jack's actions at the moment? I assumed, given his "bait" conversation with Will, that he was at least still entertaining the possibility that Hannibal was the Ripper. But here he is, eating Hannibal's food.

I suppose he could think Hannibal might be the Ripper but that Will is definitely wrong regarding the cannibalism? (due to having tested the party food)

Or, hey, he's already eaten like six or seven people. What does another one matter at this point?

Is anyone else a bit confused by Jack's actions at the moment? I assumed, given his "bait" conversation with Will, that he was at least still entertaining the possibility that Hannibal was the Ripper. But here he is, eating Hannibal's food.

I think Jack mentally prepared himself for about an hour before leaving to Hannibal's house and we saw him take tiny bites of his food. I think he's committed to playing the part of the oblivious 'friend' and his resolve to catch Hannibal is enough to make him sit through the meals. Also I saw the whole "wish I could forget" discussion as "God I wish I could forget what I'm eating is actually people".

Oh, and it's pretty convenient Alana wasn't at Hannibal's house that evening.

"Will, why is there a dead guy on the dining table?"
"...no reason. Hey, so how about those Ravens, huh?"

how about those Ravens, huh?

What a conveniently-named local-ish sports team!

Why did I decide to watch Hannibal over a brunch of bacon and eggs. Why is he cooking when I have bacon in my mouth.

Dunno about you, but the only squicky cooking session this season to me was the one with the foot back in episode 2.

Maybe it's because of Cleo 's Will-as-pallacat pics but when Will brought Randall to Hannibal it reminded me of when one of my cats brought me a rat 's head when I was little (sorry Peter)

I told my mom Will at the end was like a cat bringing its owner a dead present. So considerate of him, providing Hannibal with a meal like that.

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"Tier" being the German word for "animal."

Yeah, I noticed that last night. Maybe it's an homage to their German fairy-tale lead-in, Grimm.

I keep missing bits of conversation here and there (whenever Hannibal is involved) so when I rewatch it, it'll definitely be with closed caption.

Will, your dreams are getting freaky and I love what people upthread said about the Ravenstag now representing Will's darkness, while the Man-Stag represents Hannibal.

I liked the Will-Margot scene, they have a nice dynamic. Even though they said she's a lesbian, I still think we're getting Will/Margot, only it won't be romantic. [Spoiler (click to open)] I think she'll recruit him to try and off Mason, but I also think she might try and get a baby out of him, so she can usurp her brother, they mentioned something like that in one of the press releases. I'll be a bit disappointed if she uses Will, because I'd like them to form a friendship, but I guess it's better than him using her for some reason. I like Margot, she's smart and shady herself. I'm not sure if I'm anticipating or dreading the infamous sex scene next episode, I think I know who's involved, but don't know the details.

I'm ok with Will killing Randall, because it was self defense. And after killing him, it's fine that he didn't call the cops, but instead decided to use this to lure Hannibal, so he thinks Will is becoming his murder buddy. I'm a bit sad Will passed Book!Will's body count, but it's a show, so I guess I should be grateful it only happened now. I'm still ok with Will's slipping morality, there's definitely a red line he's approaching, but as far as I'm concerned he hasn't crossed it yet, though I'm still worried he might. He'll need therapy for this therapy afterwards, but since that will never ever happen, I want him to retire to Florida next season, fix boat engines, meet Molly and Will and be happy for two seconds before 'Red Dragon' brings it all crashing down.

I loved seeing Peter again, but what the hell happened with the social worker? Did they find evidence in the end? Is he still at large and free? Did he tell anyone about Will almost killing him/his talk with Hannibal? Did Hannibal get rid of him? What? I hope Bryan at least addresses it on Twitter, if he doesn't intend to address it on the show (and I'd appreciate a Miriam update while he's at it).

[Spoiler (click to open)]Can't wait for Mason next week! 5 people crazy ass sex scene! Will possibly having his own murder tableau! Crazy Hannibal shenanigans! And next Friday is my birthday, so I want an awesome and crazy episode as a Bday present from Fuller

Having finished the episode, my own wall of text:

Okay, I do not in any way ship Hannibal/Will or Hannibal/ANYONE, because: Hannibal. It’s HANNIBAL! NO-ONE should be loving him up (poor Alana). But the therapy scene is almost IMPOSSIBLE to describe in non-sexual/non-romantic terms. Hannibal just IS “in love” with Will at this point, Will just IS seducing him, I… eeuurrrgh. I don’t think Hannibal actually wants physical sex with Will, but that scene really felt as horribly intimate as very bad wrong sex. Bad-wrong-dirty-violating-kinda-hot mindsex. I am retroactively okay-not-okay with the Will nearly shooting the social worker thing, kind of, as it does seem to be part of Will’s seduction campaign. And the close-ups on Hannibal’s face, they really capture the horribleness of how close Will is forcing himself to get, how much he’s allowing Hannibal to psychically touch and handle him. Hannibal is practically SALIVATING and it’s, aarrgh. HANNIBAL STOP GETTING OFF ON PENETRATING HIS SOUL.

Hannibal’s hat. Are you kidding me.

Will’s coat’s lowest button magically fastens itself during the post-empathing with Jack in the snow. I know because the I was being bothered about the untidy look that unbuttoned button brought to a very nice coat.

Oooh, Will’s dark green shirt with rolled up sleeves while leaning on the desk. Pretty. See, I knew you could do better than that horrible badly-fitting peach number for seducing your sophisticated cannibal psychiatrist.

Aww, Will isn’t the first fragile patient Hannibal’s picked to be a murder apprentice? I wanted him to be special.

Randall, I know Hannibal told you what to do, but doesn't it strike you at all that when people turn up at your place of work and say "Huh, this thing you work with was totally used in a murder lately, the thing to do would be say "Oh dear. Oh no." Not, "Huh, yeah, figures."

Hmm. Feel Randall’s speech about identity disorder and treatment is a bit ableist, and possibly a bit transphobic. I’d rather characters who say things like “Look at me functioning in society despite my painful psychiatric problems, I’m proof mental illness is treatable” and “it’s really horrible when your sense of self doesn’t match your body” weren’t deranged killers, thanks. Actually… I was really hoping it would turn out Randall somehow WASN’T the killer and Hannibal was using an innocent patient's history against him... but, yeah. I think this is pretty bad. I withdraw “a bit”.

I love how when Margot says Hannibal’s been encouraging her to kill and Will is just like: *DRINK*

“How many have there been?” Aww, Will wanted to be special too.
Ending. Uh. Wow. Beautifully shot. It's rather ... nice to see our hero vulnerable again? Hannibal went awfully fast from mindsexing Will to trying to kill him, I mean, it makes good SENSE, but it seemed to be the kind of sense that Hannibal had flung out of the window where Will was concerned. I mean, I’m sure he was very happy with the result he got, with Will "becoming" but what if it hadn’t worked Randall had won? Who will be your murder boyfriend THEN, Hannibal, I can't believe either Randall or Margot would be decent substitutes? And Will… you just loaded Randall into your car and drove over to Hannibal’s and plonked him all decorative-like on the dining-room table? That’s… that can’t be sensible.

(Talking of which, I cannot understand how everyone's been walking around for like five episodes going "Oh, yeah, Will tried to murder Hannibal," and there are no consequences. Shouldn't attempted murder/conspiracy to murder/incitement to murder/accessory to murder be a thing? It's like the FBI is all "Well, we did nearly get you executed, here, have a freebie on the house," and I... don't think that's how it's supposed to work?)

I don’t know how they’re going to make Dolorhyde work out now, it feels as if we’ve had about 10 offbrand versions at this point.

The whole "send Randall after Will" thing was just elaborate cannibal foreplay.

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I came off that episode with two thoughts:
2) The murderer is a fucking otherkin. With a fucking murder fursuit for his murder fursona. He's talking about 'species dysphoria' holy shit im going to fucking die laughing

Ah, otherkin. Is there any terrible situation they can't make hilarious?


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