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Occupation: Girl - Abracadabra
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cleolinda
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Abracadabra
Man, I wish to God I hadn't been spoiled as to each magician's big secret--it wasn't my fault! I know I hunt down spoilers sometimes, but this time I just went to Wikipedia to find out what the basic premise of the novel was, because I wanted to know how they started being rivals instead of friends, and it frickin' GAVE THE WHOLE STORY AWAY--because I'm pretty sure my mind would have been frickin' blown if I hadn't known. Because it was pretty blown as it was, particularly the last shot--I mean, once Angier said "Look around" in the theater basement, I knew what he must be referring to, but I still wasn't prepared for the way Nolan just hit us with that last shot and ran. I also wasn't prepared for--well, let's say the movie has a different ending than what Wikipedia claims the book has, and I was kind of upset on that character's behalf. But the dueling journals thing? Fantastic. David Bowie? Outstanding. And he actually acted, with an accent, rather than playing himself--which, don't get me wrong, good times, but if I wanna watch Labyrinth I'll fire up the DVD player. And the Goblin King had Gollum for an assistant! Of course he did.

I don't want people clicking on the first cut only to have their eyes wander downwards accidentally, so: swipe! >>The thing is, I'm still not sure I understand how the real machine worked--was a duplicate transported while you stood still, or was a duplicate produced and you were transported? And quite frankly, I don't think I want to understand. Much like the basic enigma of Picnic at Hanging Rock, the machine is that much more awful if you don't know--if, like Angier says, you don't know who's in the box and who's the prestige. Because I really do think that the duplicate was a literal duplicate, right down to memory and personality and consciousness; it was literally one person in two places at once. And while it's awful to think that Angier had to face that tank every night, knowing that he had to die and a duplicate would take over, I think it's more awful if he never knew which one he was, because his consciousness experienced both events in different bodies. It doesn't matter which one he was, because the man on the other end of the trick, Transported Angier, would never know which one he was--the "original" Angier who was always transported and survived, or a duplicate who would have to die the next night. And even if you believe that he always survived and that the duplicate was the one who was produced on the spot, that's still the Angier who shot Transported Angier the first time, so if Transported Angier is the original Angier, he was killed by Duplicate Angier the first time he practiced the trick ("No! I'm--"). I'm kind of the opinion that the duplicate was the one transported, and that Angier merely killed his first duplicate, and that "No!" was to indicate that their consciousnesses were identical. But then? It would be Original Angier who drowned in the tank and Duplicate Angier who survived, only to drown in the tank the next night. And so on. But again, I like the idea that the man who came out alive didn't know whether he'd been duplicated or merely transported--whether he was a constant survivor or doomed to die the next night, and that both happened simultaneously and continuously. Schrödinger's Magician, if you will. Probably the best thing about the movie is that it leaves you with all of this to chew on.<<

ETA: Question: What did Sarah think Alfred was? "I know what you really are!" Well, apparently she didn't really know or she at least would have understood why "he" was being so schizo--so what did she actually think he was? Did she say and I just missed it?

Warning: Given that people who have seen the movie will probably want to discuss it, there will probably be major spoilers in the comments. Don't go browsing unless you've already seen it. Trust me, you don't want to know the twist(s).


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pinkpapyrus From: [info]pinkpapyrus Date: October 29th, 2006 10:21 pm (UTC) (Link)
I got to see the advanced screening, so I knew nothing about it except: Bale, Jackman, magic. so, yes, mind totally blown. lovelovelove.
rebel_waltz From: [info]rebel_waltz Date: October 29th, 2006 10:24 pm (UTC) (Link)
i'm waiting to see it with my friend when she gets back from school for Thanksgiving weekend and i can'tcan'tcan't wait.
itshardtosay From: [info]itshardtosay Date: October 29th, 2006 10:25 pm (UTC) (Link)
I'm curious about what Sarah meant as well.

I guessed a large part of the movie when Fallon was seen more often, but my mind was still blown at the end. I couldn't guess everything, which is great. I went with two people who really wanted to see it, and I gave in to the idea that I might as well watch SOMEthing. I'm glad I went, though, because even if I wasn't excited about seeing it before then, I was excited afterwards.

I think the only thing I was disappointed about was that before seeing the movie, I was hoping that someone would get into the Dark Arts of Magic. But no, it was just science. Which, of course, can be kick ass too, I suppose. :)
cleolinda From: [info]cleolinda Date: October 29th, 2006 10:38 pm (UTC) (Link)
The trailer convinced my mother that Christian Bale was actually Satan, or sold his soul thereto. So, yeah, you're not alone on that one. That was actually the idea I'd started to get before WIKIPEDIA RUINED MY LIFE.
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scary_lullabies From: [info]scary_lullabies Date: October 29th, 2006 10:28 pm (UTC) (Link)
Re: Sarah - The implication that I got off of it was that the whole ordeal of her life had made her mentally unstable (ya know, duh) and that it wasn't important other than as an indication of that. But if they had played it out and gone into detail about her crazy, that could have been totally creepifying and awesome.
jeeperstseepers From: [info]jeeperstseepers Date: October 29th, 2006 10:30 pm (UTC) (Link)
My understanding is that the Angier that walks into the machine is the one that falls through the trapdoor and drowns, while the new duplicate shows up for the prestige. However, like you say, the duplicates are exact, and both Angiers are equally Angier...it's just that the original Angier was Angier for longer, you know? Whatever the case is, Original Angier is long dead by the time we reach the end of the movie, because he was either shot by his duplicate or he died the first time he did the trick with the water tank. Awesome.

Also, something that I think a lot of people haven't really conceptualized well is the fact that the Borden/Fallon situation is pretty much exactly the same; just like Angier and Angier Clone are equally Angier, Borden and Fallon are equally Borden and equally Fallon.

Oh, and lastly, something that didn't sink in until well after the movie: Just like Borden was living an act with the Borden/Fallon thing, and just like the Chinese magician was living an act with his Cripple routine, Ruper Angier was living an act. It's not that he faked his death and used the Lord Whatshisname to trick Borden into spilling his secrets. It's that he really IS Lord Whatshisname and has been his whole life--it was Rupert Angier that was an act so that he could protect his family and real identity while doing what he loved. What is truly and completely awesome about this, is that it means that he was faking an American accent the whole time, and the reason that's SO COOL is that a few times during the movie I thought to myself, "This isn't a terribly American accent, but I thought Jackman could do a better one than this...it's a little bit off." Now, I don't know if he was really doing this, but if Hugh Jackman was purposely making his American accent just a tiny bit off on purpose, because he was playing an English Lord pretending to be American, then I may have to hung him down and marry him RIGHT NOW.

Um, this is a long comment. Bye.
itshardtosay From: [info]itshardtosay Date: October 29th, 2006 10:34 pm (UTC) (Link)
♥ for the thoughts, because YES.

and

♥ for the newsies icon, because yay spot (and yay cowboy)!
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sorchar From: [info]sorchar Date: October 29th, 2006 10:34 pm (UTC) (Link)
I foresaw Jackman being Lord Whosit when he said that about his family not approving of his theatrical aspirations, because I've read a lot of Regency romances. *hearts*
cleolinda From: [info]cleolinda Date: October 29th, 2006 10:55 pm (UTC) (Link)
Heh. I figured that he was totally a lord, but I didn't catch on to him being THAT lord until later than I should have.
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alpheratz From: [info]alpheratz Date: October 29th, 2006 11:03 pm (UTC) (Link)
Personally, I want to know why they were such utter dicks (I mean, I loved the movie, but still), or barring that, why exactly Angier's wife drowned. Did Borden tie the wrong knot (in which case, why?), or was it just an accident?
neveth From: [info]neveth Date: October 29th, 2006 11:11 pm (UTC) (Link)
I got the impression that somehow he messed up the knot and she couldn't free her hands to open the lock.
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lilychick From: [info]lilychick Date: October 29th, 2006 11:15 pm (UTC) (Link)
Bringing over the thread from the other post, so we don't have to worry about spoiling anyone. :-) You guys: here there be spoilers!

I see what you mean about Borden coming off as the sociopath early on. The way it's set up, Angier comes off more sympathetic (as you understand that his motivation is Julia) and you just *don't* know why Borden's so hot-and-cold. At the same time, though, I really did believe that Borden wasn't responsible for what happened to Julia -- even if he did tie the harder knot, like you said, she seemed to know and agree it was okay -- and it wasn't like he didn't seem *remorseful* about it. But Angier couldn't accept that, and when he went into the bullet trick, he was completely intending to kill Borden on the spot, if Fallon hadn't intervened. And you know *why* he'd do it, but that's why I feel like he's really more at fault for everything that comes afterward.

Oddly, Borden humiliating Angier during The New Transported Man *didn't* bother me all that much -- it made me laugh. I mean, Angier had stolen his trick *directly*, and was trying to run him out of business with it. I was more bothered earlier on when Borden ruined the birdcage trick, because it seemed so unnecessary (and also -- poor dove!), and I *know* it was a sort of revenge for the bullet catch, but still, it didn't seem so *personal*. Like, Borden could have come back with his Transported Man and done excellently without first having taken down Angier's show. But iirc I think one of the brothers did that without the other's consent (yes?), so I don't know.

(I lost my train of thought somewhere. Hee.)
lilychick From: [info]lilychick Date: October 29th, 2006 11:17 pm (UTC) (Link)
Also -- could there BE more asterisks in that comment? [/Chandler moment]
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jonquil From: [info]jonquil Date: October 29th, 2006 11:18 pm (UTC) (Link)
"I know what you really are!"

I took that as some variant on "a terrible human being", something like "if THEY knew what I knew, NOBODY WOULD LOVE YOU AT ALL!!!!!", but that is not in the tricksy spirit of the movie, I admit.
fabu From: [info]fabu Date: November 26th, 2006 04:42 pm (UTC) (Link)
I dunno - I think Sarah thought she knew something significant, since she attempted to meet with Olivia and reveal something about Borden. . .(But I don't really have a clue as to what she thought she knew.)
mysticowl From: [info]mysticowl Date: October 29th, 2006 11:31 pm (UTC) (Link)
Holy fuck that was David Bowie?! Oh my god!

Re: Sarah. I think there are two possibilities. She didn't know and was arguing with the one who loved Olivia and when she saw that he meant not loving her, she killed herself. The second one is she did know and couldn't face the fact that she might have been having sex with two different men these years and thus killed herself.

I'm thinking either way her death could have been prevented if only the one who loved her came clean about the twin thing. I'm sure if she really loved him she could have lived with the fact that out in public her husband is sometimes Fallon and sometimes Alfred as long as she knew that the one she went to bed with at night is her husband.

What I don't know is when did the twins begin living as one person. After one of them saw the chinese magician, right? So why didn't anyone know they had a twin before that? Did they already plan something like that and thus kept out of each other's way? Was one apprenticing together with Angiers while the other apprenticed with the magician where he met Sarah?

And finally, who killed Julie - the one who died or the one who lived!

I've been thinking about it a lot since last night.
neveth From: [info]neveth Date: October 29th, 2006 11:41 pm (UTC) (Link)
In the very beginning with the Angier and Borden backstage and Borden's saying they should do something nobody's seen before - and he says he already knows how to do it - I'm pretty sure they're living a shared life at that point, Borden/Fallon seems to know a lot about what's it's like always putting on a performance when you're out in public.
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redglasses From: [info]redglasses Date: October 29th, 2006 11:43 pm (UTC) (Link)
Transported Angier would have the conciousness stream "Step into machine -> push button -> flash, bang! -> show up on the balcony" whereas Stationary Angier would have "Step into machine -> push button -> flash, bang! -> drown horribly". Until the flash, bang! is over they have exactly the same consciousness, so I'd give them the same claim to being Angier.

The same problem of identity shows up in the transporter from Star Trek, except that there it is the machine that disposes of the stationary version rather than a tank of water and some blind stagehands.
mycenae From: [info]mycenae Date: October 29th, 2006 11:47 pm (UTC) (Link)
Wait, the transporters in Star Trek duplicate?? This is traumatizing my childhood.
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From: [info]artname Date: October 29th, 2006 11:45 pm (UTC) (Link)

Last Shot

Okay, it went a bit fast. What *was* the last shot? I saw a few quick frames of a figure or body. Were there 100 bodies?
khaman From: [info]khaman Date: October 29th, 2006 11:50 pm (UTC) (Link)

Re: Last Shot

There were multiples. There wouldn't quite be a hundred, due to Borden messing up his run of a 100 shows, but there were some. The blind dudes were supposed to get rid of 'em.
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khaman From: [info]khaman Date: October 29th, 2006 11:47 pm (UTC) (Link)
I just finished the book and found it just as worthwhile - honestly, having seen the film makes the book itself clearer without ruining too much. You can see the Borden Twin thing immediately if you're thinking at the book the right way.

Another implication re- the money situation is that, as it's made clear in the book, money can also be duplicated. The Angier in the book uses the machine in this way as well. It's a worthwhile, rather quick read that goes through some of the similar stuff in very interesting ways. I found the modern day framing stuff to be interesting and even creepier in spots.

And as fucked up as Tesla's inventions were historically, I could almost buy this stuff happening.
cleolinda From: [info]cleolinda Date: October 30th, 2006 12:04 am (UTC) (Link)
Huh... the money thing is interesting, because Angier would have been investing all this money before they knew they could duplicate, rather than just transport, things. And even afterwards, Tesla could have (theoretically) duplicated himself a shitload of money and not had any financing problems afterwards. Who knows? Maybe he did, before Edison's men got to him.
duncanatrix From: [info]duncanatrix Date: October 29th, 2006 11:53 pm (UTC) (Link)
OK, here are a few things regarding my thoughts/opinions.

1. Angier may actually have chosen drowning as the preferred method of execution not only in memory of Julia, but because Michael Caine said that it felt like going home--he doesn't want himself to suffer?

2. I was trying to figure out if Borden's twin was a duplicate made by Tesla. Borden and Tesla must have had some kind of relationship, for there to have been electrical elements in his show and for him to have led Angier on the chase; also, if the twins were created and had duplicate memories and whatnot, wouldn't it stand to reason that the duplicate Borden could develop emotions for Olivia? Or, that the original could lose feelings for Sarah. I don't know the timeline regarding the introduction to Tesla and the issues with Sarah and the "I love you" though.

3. Maybe Sarah does know there is two of him, and she feels betrayed because even though he says he loves her he's willing to give her away half the time.
khaman From: [info]khaman Date: October 29th, 2006 11:57 pm (UTC) (Link)
2 - In the book it's made clearer that the mention of Tesla is pretty much just Borden fuckin' with Angier. That sort of got by me in the film, too, but I suspect it's similar.
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silversmoke From: [info]silversmoke Date: October 29th, 2006 11:59 pm (UTC) (Link)
What I choose to believe (Because I'm a hopeless romantic):

Sarah did know, and had known for a long time. She was just in love with the wrong twin. In the backstage version of my head, Sarah was in love with the man that didn't love her, and let herself pretend with the man that did.

"I know what you really are," she said, but what she meant was, "Haven't you always just wanted someone to know, and can't you love me just a little bit for knowing?"
cleolinda From: [info]cleolinda Date: October 30th, 2006 12:16 am (UTC) (Link)
Wow... that's a really interesting take on it. Dammit! I so need to see this again.
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From: [info]squid_uxia Date: October 30th, 2006 12:37 am (UTC) (Link)
Bowie's accent was actually the only off note for me -- the real Tesla's English was perfect, and supposedly either hardly accented or not at all. But that's being a little bit of an unreasonable Tesla fangirl, I guess, and really overall I loved the crap out of his performance. Gollum and the Goblin King tsking and shaking their heads over how you just can't ever predict what science is going to do = hilarity.

I wish someone would do a biopic about Tesla, though, if only to expand public awareness of the Edison/Tesla feud that was hinted at in this movie. Edison really was that much of a dick and more, and Tesla himself was so much more strange and amazing than it's possible to get across in a cameo part, even for David Bowie. Someday!
cleolinda From: [info]cleolinda Date: October 30th, 2006 12:49 am (UTC) (Link)
Wow, you may be exactly the person I need to talk to, then. Since I'm trying to inject more science into Black Ribbon, and I just reread The Devil in the White City, I was thinking of involving Tesla in some way--talking about what he was doing, having other characters talk about him or be acquainted with him offstage, something. Not necessarily having him as an actual character, but that might change, depending on what research turns up. I'm looking at the period of roughly 1875-1890, which seems to be before The Prestige, although the general state of science in Black Ribbon is that it's a bit sped up (an attempt at the steampunk genre, basically), so I'm having to find out what really *was* possible at the time and several years afterwards in order to do that. It's an alternate universe based largely in reality, just a little bit skewed and a little bit advanced. Which is a longwinded way of saying, is there something you could recommend, like a really good biography?
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christwise From: [info]christwise Date: October 30th, 2006 12:43 am (UTC) (Link)
Re. how the machine works...

I think at one point he says he never knew if he would be the transported man or the one in the tank. Though if it was the duplicate that survived, he wouldn't know that he died every night. Or something. GOD DAMMIT!

I love all the little hints throughout the movie. I was laughing so hard the second time I went I kinda gave it away to my friends. "I don't need a brother a need a double"? Hilarity.
metonymy From: [info]metonymy Date: October 30th, 2006 12:53 am (UTC) (Link)
I read the book this summer, and OMG THE MOVIE IS SO MUCH MORE FUCKED UP AND SCARY AND FREAKY. I stopped going "ooh hot" about thirty seconds in, because - murder? And - oh, the whole thing. It was brilliantly done, and I may actually like the film better than the book. Shivery. I have so many questions left -
* which Borden tied the knot (I think it's pretty clear on screen that the knot is different from the first performance)? After a certain point I started referring to them as Asshole!Borden and Nice!Borden.
* When did Cutter figure out that they weren't just doubles on stage but actual twins leading a single life?
* What did Sarah know? I personally think that Sarah knew that he was two different people, she offered him one last chance to admit to her what she already knew, and when he (i.e. Asshole Borden) didn't take that chance, she killed herself.
* How much did Olivia know, for that matter?

I also had the impression from the book that the real Angier was transported and what was left behind was a hollow shell, not a real person. Because they're all perfectly preserved and not natural. (And the reason the framing, modern-day first-person narrator is twinned is because something went wrong with the apparatus after not being used for fifty years or whatever.) Also, it took me an embarassingly long time to figure out that Fallon was the other twin - I guess I figured they were just hanging out in the workshop or whatever.
cleolinda From: [info]cleolinda Date: October 30th, 2006 03:12 am (UTC) (Link)
Because they're all perfectly preserved and not natural.

You know, it finally occurred to me that we only ever saw one body--presumably the most recent one. Although by the time Borden hanged, it should have been there a while, true. But there's no telling what stages of decay the others were in. *eeeeeeh*
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edda From: [info]edda Date: October 30th, 2006 01:21 am (UTC) (Link)
My general take on the movie was that there wasn't supposed to be a "good" guy or a "bad" guy--just two fascinating but very fucked-up human beings. At the end, one of them claimed to love his family more (sort of) and the other claimed to love the audience's rapture more, but either way they were two men consumed by their obsessions, which ended up destroying everything and everyone around them. Cutter and Tesla tried to warn them, but they were too intent in their rivalry to listen. Both of them ended up paying a terrible price, no matter which one walked away.

And I would just like to point out that my ability to contonue typing and being even mildly coherent in the face of multiple Hugh Jackmans and Christian Bales is nothing short of heroic. Mmmmmprettehprettehmen!
this_quiet From: [info]this_quiet Date: October 30th, 2006 01:54 am (UTC) (Link)
My theory is, Sarah just had a feeling that something was off, but couldn't really put her finger on it, which was what eventually drove her to desperation, and hence, suicide. I mean, if she KNEW, then she'd probably be having answers and won't be so effed up about it in her head. I think this is the case because of what she said about that "catching bullet" trick, when she said that it seemed so obvious, when Alfred revealed it to her, but no so obvious without Alfred actually telling her what the secret was. So without Alfred telling her, she KNEW, but she really didn't know.

I really felt bad for Sarah, though. She was lovely! And they had to mess her head up like that!

I'd like to believe that there's one more Angier running around, and my friends and I think they shouldn't have killed off the clones! They should've donated it to the world! A world with many Hugh Jackmans! Woo!

I expected Bowie to break out into "Dance magic dance!" Hee hee. But in all seriousness, he was excellent. And the Gollum comment. Ha. Of course, the Goblin King won't accept anyone else, fools.
okaasan59 From: [info]okaasan59 Date: October 30th, 2006 03:37 am (UTC) (Link)
A world with many Hugh Jackmans! Woo!

Now that's the best idea I've heard yet!
laurelin_kit From: [info]laurelin_kit Date: October 30th, 2006 01:58 am (UTC) (Link)
Yeah, see, I never ever figured any of it out because I thought (from the trailer) that Christian Bale was going to end up having "real magic." So I was kind of pissed at the end when I saw it the first time. Something along the lines of "TWINS? You've got to be kidding me. I THOUGHT HE WAS MAGIC!"

cleolinda From: [info]cleolinda Date: October 30th, 2006 02:02 am (UTC) (Link)
Hey, him and Jackman being pretty was all the magic I needed.
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thatpalechick From: [info]thatpalechick Date: October 30th, 2006 02:11 am (UTC) (Link)
I loved this movie, but I am ashamed to admit that I didn't even realize Bowie was in it until I saw his name in the credits. I'm used to him being David Bowie, instead of actually playing a character.

"Schrödinger's Magician"=Win.
cleolinda From: [info]cleolinda Date: October 30th, 2006 02:22 am (UTC) (Link)
I noticed that there weren't any credits at the beginning, actually, because I wanted my mother (who went with me) to see his name up front and be like, "Wait, what?"
this_quiet From: [info]this_quiet Date: October 30th, 2006 02:19 am (UTC) (Link)
Also: I love how the movie is a magic trick by itself: There's a pledge, a turn, and in the end-- a prestige! There's a man in a box, and there's a man who returns. And more questions:

- Who's the little girl's little daddy?
- And whatever the hell happened to Olivia?

Sorry. I cannot stop talking about this movie!
amanuensis1 From: [info]amanuensis1 Date: October 30th, 2006 02:22 am (UTC) (Link)
I caught a lot of stuff early on and was shamefully smug about it. I knew pretty quickly that Fallon had to be someone in disguise, because they never let the camera linger on him; I knew it couldn't be Jackman or Caine because of the height, and thought perhaps the disguise was hiding a woman. But then I asked myself if it could be Bale, and it all fell into place. This was after he'd gone through the "I had a double, and that gave him power over me..." scene. So I didn't expect that this was a brother or a twin, but a very good double he'd picked up, and now the double wanted to be in on Bale's life, and Bale was the sort of personality who would go for it, yeah. The whole "cripple and the fishbowl" thing.

I was saying, "Jackman's not dead, he's set Bale up for his murder," from the first scene, but what I didn't expect was that Tesla's machine actually worked. I thought Jackman had picked up Rook again, and that it was Rook who'd died in the tank. The idea that Tesla's machine had worked and that last shot of the film...woo. Fabulous.

What I got from Jackman's statement about, "I never knew if I'd be in the box or in the Prestige" was that Tesla's machine does not make a clone duplicate, so to speak. The new creation is also you, and Jackman's consciousness was in both bodies, so that every night one part of him was actually drowning in the box. Because otherwise he'd be making sure he wasn't the one to go into the box each night! So I don't think anyone can convince me otherwise on that.

I also said, "Damn, that looks like David Bowie," as soon as Tesla showed up. And I kept looking for his mismatched eyes, though it was very hard to spot that because of the lighting. I didn't really see a clear shot of his eyes until the second Tesla scene.
cleolinda From: [info]cleolinda Date: October 30th, 2006 02:25 am (UTC) (Link)
Yeah, I knew it was David Bowie as early as the first trailer, because I was like, "Shit, why did no one tell me about this sooner?!" They may have mentioned him by name, I can't remember.
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princessstarr From: [info]princessstarr Date: October 30th, 2006 03:03 am (UTC) (Link)
Re the Sarah thing:

I think she figured out what was going with the Borden brothers, but wasn't sure. And that's why she killed herself- she couldn't live with the fact that she's spending her life with a man she doesn't love.

My one question with the movie is WHY was Angier saving all of his dead duplicates in the first place? Was the duplicate still alive or...?
cleolinda From: [info]cleolinda Date: October 30th, 2006 03:09 am (UTC) (Link)
I figured he was saving them to dispose of them all at once--it'd be hard to get rid of one body a night; it'd start to look like there was a serial killer around. But burn everything up in one nice big fire...
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