Okay, since I think I was waxing a bit verbose about this on a site meant for 140-character messages:
What happened was, A History of Violence screenwriter Josh Olson informed the internets that He Will Not Read Your Fucking Script.
Cole Abaius thought this made him a bit of an asshole, although more for the tone than the sentiment.
John Scalzi weighed in (more calmly) and agreed, although he mostly focused on the "Writers have no obligations to strangers" and "I do not owe you my time" and "I do not need to piss off people I know by asking for favors for every single stranger who approaches me" aspects.
And then David Gerrold brought up my own worst fear. See, I don't think people realize the legal jeopardy other people's unpublished work puts a working writer in. Three words for you: Marion Zimmer Bradley (fifth paragraph under "Literary Career"). If you read someone's unpublished work and you then write anything that's the least bit similar, that person could sue you for copyright infringement (i.e., plagiarism). The problem is, there are certain things, certain similarities, that are going to occur in any two works on the same subject, and the established writer may have no way of proving they did not copy. They might be able to defend themselves in court and win, if they can argue that there are more differences than similarities, or that the similarities are not strong enough, but they still have to go to court and pay those legal fees and waste that time.
Here's both sides of that, from my own experience: ( Read more...Collapse )
Occupation: Girl
Please close the door and switch on the fun without fail.
- HEY YOU GUYS I WROTE A BOOK
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- *table flip* — 2 uses
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- a wizard did it — 1 use
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- actual sparkle motion — 20 uses
- advice — 12 uses
- alabama is the center of the universe — 69 uses
- alan moore — 9 uses
- alcohol is in it — 34 uses
- alice in wonderland — 36 uses
- alien — 17 uses
- alison weir — 4 uses
- american gods — 5 uses
- anglo-filles — 3 uses
- animals — 43 uses
- anne of green gables — 2 uses
- anne rice — 2 uses
- annotations — 13 uses
- announcements — 5 uses
- anonymous — 5 uses
- antiquities — 5 uses
- antonia fraser — 1 use
- anxiety — 16 uses
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- april fool's day — 5 uses
- are you kidding me — 17 uses
- aromaleigh — 26 uses
- aromaleigh-primavera — 2 uses
- aromaleigh-red-dragon — 2 uses
- art — 16 uses
- arting under these conditions — 1 use
- asshaberdashery — 73 uses
- astrology — 3 uses
- at least it's not twilight — 2 uses
- athena's daughters — 5 uses
- australia — 31 uses
- authors — 2 uses
- avengers — 5 uses
- awards — 327 uses
- backdated — 7 uses
- bad cat — 23 uses
- bad days — 41 uses
- bad dog no biscuit — 8 uses
- bad ideas — 7 uses
- banned books — 5 uses
- barbie — 33 uses
- bars — 6 uses
- batman — 221 uses
- best of — 77 uses
- better with raptors — 1 use
- bipolar — 12 uses
- birmingham — 9 uses
- birthdays — 23 uses
- births — 7 uses
- black ribbon — 101 uses
- blade runner — 2 uses
- blogs — 21 uses
- bond — 166 uses
- book discussion — 43 uses
- book recaps — 20 uses
- books — 427 uses
- bourne — 4 uses
- box office — 8 uses
- bpal — 65 uses
- brokeback mountain — 13 uses
- business — 8 uses
- cafepress — 17 uses
- candy — 14 uses
- captain blood — 1 use
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- charity — 40 uses
- chaucer — 3 uses
- cheese just wants to love you — 9 uses
- chez cleo — 20 uses
- children's literature — 4 uses
- chocolate — 24 uses
- christmas — 48 uses
- clash of the titans — 21 uses
- class — 4 uses
- cleaning — 22 uses
- cleo sue — 4 uses
- cleoland — 1 use
- cleolinda industries — 3 uses
- cleopatra — 4 uses
- cloverfield — 75 uses
- comic-con — 1 use
- comics — 57 uses
- complete and utter tragedy — 1 use
- computer: betsy — 11 uses
- computer: camille — 7 uses
- computer: lizzie — 18 uses
- computers — 47 uses
- contests — 2 uses
- conventions — 46 uses
- conversations with my mother — 50 uses
- conversations with my sister — 23 uses
- cooking — 13 uses
- copyright — 15 uses
- coraline — 49 uses
- cosmic signs — 1 use
- costumes — 18 uses
- creativity — 1 use
- creepy — 4 uses
- crime — 56 uses
- crimson peak — 1 use
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- cthulhu — 6 uses
- cuba — 7 uses
- cute — 34 uses
- cuteness — 7 uses
- dailydigest — 28 uses
- david bowie — 9 uses
- days of our lives — 43 uses
- deadpool — 1 use
- death and taxes — 1 use
- deaths — 173 uses
- dental work (sigh) — 5 uses
- depeche mode — 1 use
- depression — 63 uses
- devil in the white city — 3 uses
- dionaea house — 6 uses
- dire ravenstag — 2 uses
- disasters — 4 uses
- disney — 48 uses
- do not want — 8 uses
- doctor who — 39 uses
- dolls — 264 uses
- don't look at me — 1 use
- down with this sort of thing — 11 uses
- dracula — 31 uses
- dracula recaps — 3 uses
- dragon con — 10 uses
- dreams — 31 uses
- drinking games — 1 use
- drive — 1 use
- dvd — 21 uses
- easter — 2 uses
- ebay — 18 uses
- ebooks — 7 uses
- edward cat — 12 uses
- elementary — 1 use
- elizabeth — 4 uses
- emmys — 4 uses
- empire — 6 uses
- employment — 2 uses
- epic fail — 22 uses
- epic win — 45 uses
- etsy — 2 uses
- evil — 2 uses
- existential terror — 1 use
- facebook — 48 uses
- facepalm — 2 uses
- fairy tales — 2 uses
- family — 48 uses
- fan service — 2 uses
- fandom — 70 uses
- fandom wank — 6 uses
- fanfic — 1 use
- fantasy — 4 uses
- faq — 3 uses
- fashion — 11 uses
- february 13th — 6 uses
- feeds — 2 uses
- feminism — 2 uses
- fiction — 7 uses
- fight! fight!! — 2 uses
- film festivals — 36 uses
- first world problems — 1 use
- flames on the side of my face — 1 use
- flaming chicken of doom — 3 uses
- flesh-eating catbitis — 10 uses
- fonts — 1 use
- for science! — 7 uses
- formspring — 11 uses
- frankenstein — 2 uses
- fraud — 3 uses
- friends — 14 uses
- from hell — 3 uses
- fuckery most foul — 5 uses
- game of thrones — 2 uses
- games — 22 uses
- gaming — 2 uses
- garbage — 4 uses
- ghosts — 5 uses
- golden globes — 78 uses
- gondor needs no context — 2 uses
- good — 5 uses
- good cleo always helps — 2 uses
- gothic — 11 uses
- graphic novels — 3 uses
- gravity — 4 uses
- great achievements of my life — 1 use
- great inventions — 1 use
- grief — 6 uses
- hair — 3 uses
- haiti — 9 uses
- halloween — 45 uses
- hannibal — 91 uses
- harry potter — 422 uses
- haters to the left — 19 uses
- health — 85 uses
- heroine addict — 11 uses
- hidalgo — 2 uses
- hilarity — 26 uses
- his dark materials — 129 uses
- history — 6 uses
- hitchcock — 5 uses
- hoaxes — 8 uses
- holidays — 22 uses
- horror — 20 uses
- house of bark — 100 uses
- house of leaves — 3 uses
- housekeeping — 16 uses
- humor — 2 uses
- hurricanes — 24 uses
- hypomania — 25 uses
- i am never making it up — 25 uses
- i am not a twilight blogger (sob) — 4 uses
- i can't believe i just did this — 2 uses
- i don't like people anymore — 3 uses
- i have no tag for this — 5 uses
- i persevere — 5 uses
- i wrote a thing — 7 uses
- ice cream — 10 uses
- icons — 68 uses
- illustrators — 8 uses
- inception — 15 uses
- independence day — 2 uses
- indiana jones — 62 uses
- insomnia — 4 uses
- interviews — 11 uses
- iphone — 8 uses
- iron man — 85 uses
- irony — 1 use
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- james bond — 1 use
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- jewelry — 47 uses
- jk rowling — 15 uses
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- jurassic park — 4 uses
- justice league — 1 use
- katrina — 35 uses
- kerfuffles — 1 use
- kickstarter — 4 uses
- king arthur — 5 uses
- kingdom of loathing — 1 use
- knitting — 12 uses
- kol — 3 uses
- kurt vonnegut — 3 uses
- language — 3 uses
- league of extraordinary gentlemen — 4 uses
- leaving the house omg — 22 uses
- lemony snicket — 17 uses
- les miserables — 2 uses
- let me apologize in advance — 3 uses
- let me tell you internets — 3 uses
- let the right one in — 23 uses
- lexicongate — 18 uses
- linkspam — 14 uses
- lip gloss — 3 uses
- lit crit — 2 uses
- little women — 2 uses
- liveblog — 110 uses
- liveblogging — 1 use
- liveblogs — 1 use
- livejournal — 41 uses
- logical fallacies — 1 use
- lolcats — 63 uses
- look at my writing go — 1 use
- lord of the rings — 226 uses
- lost — 249 uses
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- lostnesday — 58 uses
- louisa may alcott — 5 uses
- lovecraft — 12 uses
- lucky — 8 uses
- m15m — 110 uses
- m15m book — 41 uses
- macros — 7 uses
- mad max — 1 use
- made of fail — 45 uses
- magazines — 18 uses
- mail — 12 uses
- makeup — 27 uses
- maleficent — 1 use
- margaret atwood — 5 uses
- marie antoinette — 12 uses
- matched — 2 uses
- matrix — 1 use
- meko — 3 uses
- memes — 35 uses
- memoirs — 4 uses
- mental health — 14 uses
- merchandising — 1 use
- mmmcake — 11 uses
- monsters — 6 uses
- monty python — 1 use
- mortal peril — 1 use
- moulin rouge — 1 use
- movie discussion — 80 uses
- movies — 957 uses
- mst3k — 12 uses
- murder sparkle — 1 use
- music — 233 uses
- music discussion — 5 uses
- musicals — 9 uses
- my grandmother — 7 uses
- my heart grew three sizes — 3 uses
- my life is so hard omg — 6 uses
- my little pony — 33 uses
- my little ravenstag — 1 use
- my mother — 68 uses
- my next garage band — 9 uses
- my sister — 3 uses
- myspace — 18 uses
- nail polish (shut up) — 2 uses
- nancy drew — 14 uses
- nanowrimo — 11 uses
- narnia — 143 uses
- nbc dracula — 9 uses
- neil gaiman — 87 uses
- new orleans — 34 uses
- new year's — 11 uses
- new york — 6 uses
- nick cave — 8 uses
- nora roberts — 9 uses
- norovirus — 9 uses
- north by northwest — 1 use
- not okay — 2 uses
- not one of my better moments — 6 uses
- numbered thoughts are organized thoughts — 6 uses
- nun clown — 1 use
- o rly — 5 uses
- o snap — 10 uses
- oh dramatize — 10 uses
- oh hell no — 18 uses
- oh why not — 1 use
- olympics — 24 uses
- om nom nom — 111 uses
- omfg — 3 uses
- omgwtf — 7 uses
- omgwtfpolarbear — 24 uses
- onoz — 20 uses
- oscars — 217 uses
- ow — 4 uses
- pacific rim — 1 use
- pallas cats — 8 uses
- paranormal — 7 uses
- passions — 7 uses
- pcos — 1 use
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- people at my front door — 1 use
- pete — 11 uses
- petite lap bear — 2 uses
- pets — 5 uses
- phantom of the opera — 23 uses
- philosophical ramblings — 19 uses
- phobias — 5 uses
- picasso — 2 uses
- picnic at hanging rock — 2 uses
- picspam — 48 uses
- pirates (arrrr) — 32 uses
- pirates of the caribbean — 139 uses
- pizza — 4 uses
- plagiarism — 30 uses
- podcast — 11 uses
- podcasts — 49 uses
- poe — 20 uses
- poetry — 19 uses
- politics — 9 uses
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- press — 1 use
- pride and prejudice — 10 uses
- prince — 23 uses
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- project runway — 1 use
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- protests — 2 uses
- proust — 1 use
- psychology — 1 use
- pthoolhu — 3 uses
- public unrest — 1 use
- publishing — 59 uses
- pure awesomeness — 2 uses
- queens — 2 uses
- quelle scandale — 13 uses
- questions — 35 uses
- rants — 21 uses
- ray bradbury — 3 uses
- reader comments — 5 uses
- recaps — 120 uses
- recipes — 1 use
- red dragon — 2 uses
- reign — 1 use
- relationships — 3 uses
- relevant to my interests — 6 uses
- reposted — 7 uses
- research — 15 uses
- resolutions — 2 uses
- reviews — 16 uses
- robin hood — 34 uses
- romance — 1 use
- rome — 2 uses
- rooster — 1 use
- rose hannah — 1 use
- rx for writer's block — 3 uses
- sad — 1 use
- sag awards — 39 uses
- salvador dali — 17 uses
- sam — 28 uses
- sast — 5 uses
- savannah — 5 uses
- scary — 8 uses
- schadenfreude — 12 uses
- school — 73 uses
- science — 6 uses
- scientology — 7 uses
- scifi — 46 uses
- scout — 18 uses
- scout and shelby — 1 use
- screencaps — 3 uses
- sdcc — 1 use
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- senior wtf correspondent — 1 use
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- sexism — 3 uses
- shakespeare — 29 uses
- shelby — 24 uses
- shenanigans — 22 uses
- sherlock holmes — 64 uses
- shopping — 57 uses
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- sister girl — 51 uses
- skating — 7 uses
- sleeping beauty — 3 uses
- sleepy hollow — 7 uses
- smashup 2006 — 3 uses
- smashup 2007 — 6 uses
- snow white — 5 uses
- snow! — 19 uses
- snowboard — 1 use
- soap operas — 47 uses
- sockpuppetry — 2 uses
- software — 1 use
- something finally going right — 1 use
- spam — 5 uses
- sparkle consultant — 3 uses
- sparkle motion — 309 uses
- sparklemas — 12 uses
- spelling complex — 2 uses
- spider-man — 60 uses
- spoilers — 1 use
- spring — 1 use
- squee — 8 uses
- stage and theater — 16 uses
- stage magic — 4 uses
- stain removal — 2 uses
- star trek — 110 uses
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- stoker — 1 use
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- stress — 14 uses
- strikes — 23 uses
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- super bowl — 6 uses
- superman — 46 uses
- surveys — 1 use
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- tax panic — 17 uses
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- terminator — 84 uses
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- thanksgiving — 6 uses
- that was way harsh — 1 use
- the avengers — 2 uses
- the daily something — 4 uses
- the dark crystal — 3 uses
- the dark knight — 4 uses
- the dark tower — 4 uses
- the day after tomorrow — 1 use
- the force awakens — 1 use
- the fountain — 5 uses
- the gift of fear — 1 use
- the girl with the dragon tattoo — 14 uses
- the golden age — 15 uses
- the great gatsby — 5 uses
- the happening — 9 uses
- the horror — 2 uses
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- the hunger games — 29 uses
- the illusionist — 5 uses
- the king in yellow — 1 use
- the little prince — 1 use
- the lodger — 1 use
- the lovely emily — 10 uses
- the more you know — 2 uses
- the neverending story — 1 use
- the prestige — 10 uses
- the princess bride — 1 use
- the ring — 1 use
- the secret life of dolls — 122 uses
- the sparkledämmerung — 1 use
- the toast — 2 uses
- the unbearable capslock of being — 2 uses
- the wolfman — 29 uses
- the women — 7 uses
- the x-files — 5 uses
- theater — 34 uses
- this is going to end well — 49 uses
- thor — 3 uses
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- twilight — 526 uses
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- yay! — 11 uses
- young adult — 1 use
- young wizards — 1 use
- youtube — 8 uses
- zombies — 49 uses
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The MZB thing is kind of sad because I think it was awesome for her to be so generous with her world and encouraging fanfic writers, only to be bitten by it. Meh.
For my part, I tend not to read parodies related to something I want to write about, but that's because other people's lines get stuck in my head and I can't think of anything else and then I can't finish. It's not because I'm afraid of subconsciously copying--it's because I do recognize that it's not mine and then I can't get past it. So a lot of times, I'll put off reading something related until I'm done with my own thing. Someone once complained that I was really depriving myself or something, but they were also trying to get me to read and link to their own thing at the time, so: grain of salt.
I remember the MZB issue from the way it rocked through the fandoms. In its wake, there were authors with heavily locked-down fan club activities, demanding release forms to be sent to the author with every zine submission in order to absolve the author of blame if suspiciously-similar elements appeared in their later works. It sucks. But was what they did to protect themselves. And it's even harder to do it now with the internet, when it's that much easier to stumble into fanworks without anticipating it.
That is what publishing houses are for people. You want to be a published writer then send your work to them--why should you have any "free rides" when the rest (most) of us have to send it in the 'old fashioned way'??!
Of course some people just really want a pat on the back or, scarily, an excuse to sue a successful artist, and I won't even go into that, but for all those who just really want to make it in the business (personally, I have nothing against the 1st-time-lucky fantasy. We don't usually hear about the rejection nightmare artists face before their big break--we've heard about the big break itself, and what's wrong with dreaming of getting there without the soul-shrivelling rejections, really...? Being rejected is hard, after all. Inescapable, but hard, and I don't have a problem with fantasising of an easier road--up until the point where you start thinking you're entitled to one, that is), but people. People. If you want your work to be seen/read/heard so very much, protect it before bandying it about. Handing out scripts/etc. is all well and good when you're a teen writing to the X-Files team, who'll unwittingly protect you in the process of protecting themselves, but beyond that... it's just careless, dangerous and unprofessional, and it's not going to open you any doors. UGH.
[/RANT]
... also, please stop sending fanfic to pro writers. Us occasional fic-penners are in grey, potentially litigious territory as it is without people actually drawing the attention of the bigwigs' lawyers to our leisure time escapades.
I guess not everyone thinks like that, though.
Oh holy God. I just had a flashback in the ladies' room.
There was also the fella who asked me out because, it turned out, he was an aspiring novelist, so obviously we were perfect for each other and would live in a little cottage somewhere with me illustrating his literary visions, probably in the style of Thomas Kincaide. He was night manager of a McDonald's, and did not know how a photocopier worked or where books come from.
Him: What do I do? Do I just send my notebook to the publisher at the address on the inside of their books?
Me: O_O
Re: Oh holy God. I just had a flashback in the ladies' room.
I've met so many people who when they discover I draw in a cartoony style start telling me about their original manga, comic, or even once a video game idea that I will totally fall in love with and want to draw.
I typically handle it by either ignoring them or taking them seriously and start talking how much per panel or page I'd charge for it.
Ain't it the truth? People don't want to be told the truth. They want positive reinforcement. In which case, ask your mother or whoever is your obsequeious family member/friend. Don't ask a professional for his professional opinion if you're not prepared to hear it.
But I HAVE to know - which X-files episode was it??
I realize that this is totally tangential to your point, but this sentence really sounds like you're conflating copyright infringement and plagiarism, which isn't always the case. You can infringe copyright without plagiarizing [sending a copy of an ebook that you don't own the rights to, to a friend, without claiming that you wrote it], and you can plagiarize without infringing copyright [using the words of a piece of writing that is no longer covered by copyright or never was].
You can do them at the same time -- in the case of someone stealing and publishing a previously-unplublished manuscript with their own name on it, for example -- but even then, the words describe two distinct things that can happen within the same action.
Well, whether or not you like Twilight, Stephenie Meyer had a similar train of thought a few years ago when she read Alphie's fic for the first time. She enjoyed the first few chapters, but informed her that she could no longer read them. Why? Because Alphie was writing a story based off of Twilight from Edward's POV, and where Stephenie quit reading would have been where she stopped writing as well. Had she continued to read, and then published Midnight Sun, there could have been a good chance Alphie COULD have sued her had similarities popped up. And the were bound to.
It's just an extremely sticky situation, no matter which way you go about it. As a writer, I'm paranoid as all HELL to read other pieces of work. Even if I've already written things, if a similarity pops up, I feel bound to change it.
Edited at 2009-09-16 10:39 pm (UTC)
So... I'm guessing she is NOT planning a sequel, because she's just asking for a whole helluva lot of legal trouble. Which makes the book ... incredibly disappointing. :(
As someone standing in the lawyer's shoes, it is, unfortunately, easy to see why and how these suits happen. Partially, it's because, unfortunately, everyone needs to think about the "cover your own ass first" principle in their chosen profession. And when you're stopping to be considerate, or have a hard time turning people away, that's hard to do.
It's amazing, when I really stop to think that I paid in excess of $100K for my education, spent 20 years straight in school, took the time to sit for the bar exam, etc etc, and yet people (and people who are certainly smart enough to know better if they stopped to think about it) ROUTINELY ask me for legal advice as a personal favor. Ask any new law student and they'll tell you stories about how every friend and acquaintance under the sun feels that the appropriate response to "I got into law school X" is "good! I need someone to draft my will" (particularly humorous when it's a close family member who can't understand why it would be a conflict of interest for you to do this)or "great - I'll call you next time I get a ticket."
I mean, honestly, every profession has this problem. But lawyers, like writers, have very specific dangers they face if they just give you "their opinion." Hell, that's why we HAVE malpractice insurance. And since there's no malpractice insurance for authors, I have to agree with Cleo when she says that it's the writers who have to be vigilant, even at the risk of being rude. And if newbies get some education along the way, it's really for the best.
I don't get it. I mean, I can see asking family and very close friends to use their expertise (and I have both asked and given), but just to walk up to a stranger or an acquaintance? Just because economics calls it "demand," doesn't mean you have the right to actually demand it.
and on a completely unrelated subject
And now I know - if this podcast was any indication - I will never be able to write anything as funny as you women must write in your fanfic (a world of writing completely unknown to me) - and now I know so much more about both Australia and Arkansas (and then Alabama? aliteration much?).
It seems like they can either send it back unread, for which you might hate them; send it back read and critiqued, for which you probably will hate them; or send back a note saying it was wonderful, thank you, for which they're not helping you the least little bit.
As other people here have mentioned, writers' classes and workshops are fantastic places to go to get advice and learn your craft. Writing for competitions and sending in articles to magazines that accept unsolicited stuff both work well to see what editors like and to get a bit of recognition for yourself. Expecting an agent with a five-book deal to swoop down after your article in the local indy magazine is where I know a lot of people feel let down. :P
Part of the reason I haven't felt able to write anything recently is because I've been reading. I read a lot of both adult and YA fantasy and sci-fi, the genre I prefer to write for, and I know I'm not going to be able to come up with any usable ideas until I go back to non-fiction and purge a lot of those plots and characters from my mind.
It doesn't always work well. Even my username was taken from a book I read months before I adopted it, and it wasn't until I did a re-read a year later that I realised where the name came from. at which point I facepalmed and nearly broke my wrist.
Oh well. Something I thought maybe you and others might find interesting is
Did I tell anyone? No.
In fact, this is the first time I've ever mentioned it. Do I think they stole my idea? Of course not. Well, unless they're telepathic and read it in my mind (in which case we probably have more to worry about than a stolen script idea). Still, coincidences like this happen and writers need to cover their arses because people will sue them.
I follow a lot of (novel) author blogs in which writers lament that they can't read people's fanfiction or story ideas because of this exact problem. I imagine it's probably a big deal in the publishing world.
Flatcats
THIS.
Also, have you seen this marvelous parody? Harlan Ellison's dramatic reading of a Seussified version of Josh Olson's "I Will Not Read Your Fucking Script."
And if the person doesn't know that they're putting someone in legal danger, then it's not a dick move. There are better ways to educate people.
Years ago, just after Gargoyles went down, Greg Weisman answered a whole bunch of his fans' questions. He had a very good response to the fanfiction issue.
It went something like, "I don't want to read it because I want no doubt in my mind or anyone else's where I'm getting my ideas. What if you tell me something that I've thought of on my own but haven't used? What if you tell me something that I would have thought of on my own?" It didn't feel disrespectful but it made his wishes clear.
Edited at 2009-09-17 06:06 pm (UTC)